Happy New Year everyone! I know, wheres the Vampire Bestiary? Its ON SALE HERE NOW!
I thought I would bring your attention to the Wrath of the Immortals movie thats released in March. The trailer is out now and we can see a number of interesting creatures.
- Minotaur (I think)
- Chimera
- Hekatonkeres (I’m guessing thats what it is even though it only has 6 arms, I still like the design, very cool)
- Kronos
- Cyclops (not on the poster above, but in the trailer we see it dual wielding clubs ‘Ettin-stylee’)
Mini Review: Clash of the Titans (the 2010 movie)
As coincidence would have it I got the dvd of the recent Clash of the Titans remake for Christmas. I had of course already seen the movie in the cinema…in fact I also saw the original Clash of the Titans movie in the cinema when I was very young…it probably made a lasting impression on me and I’m sure Harryhausen movies in particular played a big part in kindling my interest in gods and monsters.
Anyway I digress, what about the movie. Given the subject matter I was probably always going to enjoy it on some level…and I did. But at the same time I’m not convinced its a particularly good movie even though, upon reflection a lot of the pieces fit perfectly. Great actors (if not always great dialogue), great action set-pieces and great special effects and yet, for some reason I have these nagging doubts.
- Did they do enough to make me care about those who die on the journey?
- When they do get killed they often die with a far shot whimper that makes it difficult to know who just died. If you kill off a character at least give the scene some gravitas.
- Did I really care about Andromeda (note that there are a few deleted scenes on the dvd that really would have helped me care more about Andromeda and Argos).
- Did the romance between Io and Perseus work?
Overall, I enjoyed it. The good far outweighed the bad. 7 (out of 10)
Last of the Titans (2014)
Given Hollywood’s predisposition to making money, its likely we’ll see a third and final installment in the Titans trilogy in a few years time, so what would I do?
Well, with the Titans probably defeated/re-imprisoned at the end of the second movie (I’m guessing), I would run the Gigantomachy storyline, culminating in a battle with Typhon. But the twist here is that I would make it a sort of ‘magnificent seven’ greek heroes and include the likes of Hercules, Bellerophon, Theseus (Kratos dare we?) and so on. This could segue the studios neatly into a Hercules movie spin-off trilogy. As its the last in the trilogy I’d make Typhon a truly mountainous monster (one shot I have in mind is the old colossal Talos statue being stepped on and crushed by one of Typhon’s scaly feet). Of course we also need a journey for the heroes (to unearth Pandora’s box maybe?) and some human scale drama, Gaia sets the Amazons against the heroes? Anyway, I’m sure they’ll come up with something.
Kronos – Design
So I was thinking which of the above monsters don’t have (4E) D&D stats yet and the answer is of course Kronos. So I have decided to create him using a few ideas.
- Super-solo Rules: Okay basically a super-solo has more than one stat-block. For each additional stat-block you add, reduce all stat-blocks by 5 levels (2 stat-blocks = -5 levels, 3 = -10, 4 = -15, etc.)
- Immortality: A recent idea I have had is to reduce existing deity/immortal levels by 5 outside their home plane. So Orcus (for example) would be Level 28 instead of 33 when encountered outside his Realm of Thanatos. This is basically to reflect the old ‘double their hit points on the home plane mechanic from 1st Edition. Now you might ask, “Well why not simply add 5 levels on their home plane?” The reason I much prefer the reduction is to allow epic tier PCs (and players) to encounter gods and demon princes much sooner rather than later. You shouldn’t have to wait until maximum level before you get to the cool epic stuff, every level of the epic tier should have some. The second question might be, “Well I don’t want to have to create two sets of stats for every deity and demon prince!” You won’t have to, see the super-solo rules above, all you need to do would be to create the lower-level stats and use them twice (super-solo style) when encountered on the monsters home plane.
- Mega-size: Okay, I haven’t seen the movie yet, but Kronos looks at least Mega-size (like the Kraken from the first movie) or even Giga-size (as the above movie poster infers) if he’s as big as an entire mountain/volcano. Now, yes I do have rules for mega-size, giga-size and so on, but I am not going to use them for THIS version of Kronos. I’m just going to make him Gargantuan. There are a few reasons for this. Firstly, I have a pretty cool mechanic for the encounter that works best with keeping him Gargantuan size (the tic-tac-toe Volcano battle). Secondly, I don’t want to have to go over the mega-size rules just yet (I’m still tweaking them here and there). Thirdly, I haven’t seen the movie yet so I don’t really know how big Kronos is – I may well come back to the stats and augment them after I have seen it.
- Tic-tac-toe Volcano Battle: The basic idea for the battle I have in mind takes place within a (temporarily) dormant volcano. The ‘arena’ itself is 24×24 squares, which we can break down further in nine smaller areas of 8×8 squares. This is important because Kronos will be erupting through the crust at the centre of one of those 9 areas (he occupies a 4×4 square area at the centre of an 8×8 square). When bloodied, Kronos will sink down beneath the crust (leaving a zone of lava lasting until the end of the encounter) and erupt again from a different 8×8 square. When his first stat-block is destroyed, he sinks down again. BUT, next time he erupts out of the ground moving through THREE contiguous 8×8 squares (he jumps out of the first, dives into the second and erupts again out of a third. Hence the tic-tac-toe battle. Each zone he creates spawns a fiery creature at the start of EACH ROUND. When his second stat-block is bloodied, he sinks down again and repeats the THREE contiguous 8×8 square movement routine.
- Fire Resistance: On the one hand I don’t want to make Kronos completely toothless by letting PCs buff up on fire resistance for the fight. But at the same time I don’t necessarily want to nerf fire resistance wholesale. So my idea is that each time Kronos deals damage to a target he also strips away (a cumulative) 5 points of fire resistance until the end of the encounter.
- Level: I have a few different ideas on what level Kronos should be. Is he an Elder God…possibly. But its also possible that he’s just a Greater Deity. My gut instinct is telling me that after eons of imprisonment that upon release he’d be of Greater God status and have to slowly recover his full power to get back to Elder God. So under the new auspices (see Immortality above):
- Quasi-deity = Levels 21-25 Elite (may not have a divine realm but if so, +5 on it)
- Demi-deity = Levels 26-30 Elite (may not have a divine realm but if so, +5 on it)
- Lesser deity = Levels 31-35 Elite (+5 Levels within divine realm)
- Greater Deity = Levels 36-40 Elite (+5 Levels within divine realm)
- Elder God = Levels 46-50 Elite (always considered on their home plane)
The above determinations assume that all immortal and primordial official 4E stats so far released are for beings encountered within their divine realms.
So if we assume Kronos starts at Level 40 Elite, then we reduce him first to Level 35 (solo) and then level 30 (super-solo). If he was to be encountered on his home plane then we could either add 5 levels or give him a third solo stat-block. Anyway, for this version we will be creating him at Level 30. After the movie I may go back and do a mega or giga-sized Elder God version which would be higher level.
Hope you enjoy it. I’ll try to update a lot more often in future, if you have any feedback, let me know below or feel free to email me agooddesigner@hotmail.com
Kronos – Lord of the Titans
Eternity Publishing 
S'mon
January 2, 2012
Interesting stuff Krusty; you’ve been gone a long time. Happy New Year! 🙂
Re deity power levels, I like the Moorcockian Multiverse approach that it depends on how established they are on the plane where they manifest. 4e makes scaling stats up and down very easy.
I agree that the published stats look best as ‘home plane’ stats: (a) That’s clearly what they’re intended to be used for – squelching the BBEG in his lair, and (b) Relatively weak entities from prior editions are turned into level 30 end bosses; deducting 5 levels allows them to be encountered much earlier.
Upper_Krust
January 2, 2012
Yes too long Simon, too long. But I’m back now. 😉
I was trying to find a way to lower the level of the official deities & demon princes without making them obsolete and just hit upon the idea of incorporating the home plane mechanic as a +/-5 level mechanic that can be easily folded into the super-solo rules making it an effective x2 hit points on their home plane.
Incidently one of my friends here in Belfast got me the old D&D Gods, Demigods & Heroes booklet for Christmas. Not sure if you have that book or not, its very interesting and the big surprise was that it chronicles the Hyperborea Mythos…Crom has 300 hit points (same as all the Pantheon heads in this book). 🙂
S'mon
January 2, 2012
I don’t have Gods, Demigods & Heroes, no.
Mulling over appropriate level distribution a bit more. 4e ‘Epic’ can be treated either as ‘Extended Paragon’ or as ‘Immortals level’ – as you have prevoiously noted it contains elements of both; it mashes up BECMI Masters with Immortals, and it mashes up 3.5e Very High with Epic.
I am currently running 2 4e campaigns which I would like to see run a long time. The Wilderlands one is at 8th, so getting close to Paragon, whereas the Forgotten Realms one at 4th. Each is fortnightly, about 3 hours actual play time, probably about 22 sessions/year. Levelling up is about once per 3 sessions or 8-9 hours of play, much faster than in my first 4e campaign – deliberate, and aided by my decision to always halve monster hit points; best decision I’ve made in my 4e DMing career. This means about 7-8 levels per year of play, and at least 3 years to get to level 30. I’m not sure how practical a goal a 3 year campaign is these days, though the FR game player group seems stable.
So, the decision I have to make is how to address BBEG powe demographics. Do I stick with level 27 Balors, level 33 demon lords, and hope the game lasts that long? Should I be pushing Balors & Demon Lords down to high paragon levels, so that the campaign is Paragon-focused, with any Epic play a postscript, largely unsupported?
Upper_Krust
January 2, 2012
Re: Gods, Demigods & Heroes. It has about 60 Hyperborea entries, though half are magic items, only 9 are deities. The only name I don’t see is Thulsa Doom. Overall its a very good book, think Deities & Demigods but without the illustrations and slightly shorter stat-blocks.
Re: Paragon play. I think what you are likely to find the further you delve into that tier is the PCs churning through same level monsters significantly faster. I know you usually compensate for that with more monsters but I’ll be interested to see how the halving of hit points works in the Paragon tier.
Re: BBEG Power Demographics. The official levels for almost all epic monsters are far too high. I think the first rule to adopt is to scale down all ‘deities’ (and I use that term to include demon princes and primordials) down 5 levels when outside their home plane. The second idea I would bring to bear is to advance the rank (ie. elites to solo) for all important monsters (for their initial appearance at any rate).
e.g. Balor (officially Level 27 Elite) becomes a Level 17 Solo monster (-5 for being outside the Abyss, a further -5 converted from Elite to Solo. This makes it much more of a mid-paragon tier BBEG (as per Lord of the Rings), than epic tier henchman. The same monster as a Level 26 standard rank enemy could be used as a rank and file epic monster.
Personally I’d like to redevelop ALL the official epic tier stats, but clearly thats going to be a pointless waste of my time, so better to try and work in tandem with the official rules if possible.
For your game I’d suggest maybe scaling a few prominent epic tier monsters down to Paragon tier, while scaling any Level 30+ monsters down to the Epic tier.
As for whether your game will reach the Epic Tier I’m sure I’ll have cooked something up for the epic tier by the time you reach it. 😉
S'mon
January 2, 2012
“Re: BBEG Power Demographics. The official levels for almost all epic monsters are far too high. I think the first rule to adopt is to scale down all ‘deities’ (and I use that term to include demon princes and primordials) down 5 levels when outside their home plane. The second idea I would bring to bear is to advance the rank (ie. elites to solo) for all important monsters (for their initial appearance at any rate).
e.g. Balor (officially Level 27 Elite) becomes a Level 17 Solo monster (-5 for being outside the Abyss, a further -5 converted from Elite to Solo. This makes it much more of a mid-paragon tier BBEG (as per Lord of the Rings), than epic tier henchman. The same monster as a Level 26 standard rank enemy could be used as a rank and file epic monster.”
Thanks for the advice Krusty, this is matching my thoughts pretty closely. I may take a different approach in the two campaigns, eg in Wilderlands a ‘Balrog’ was traditionally something you might encounter as a wandering monster! FR uses very high power demogtaphics, OTOH AIR Driz’zt beat Errtu the Type VI demon back in The Crystal Shard! And you’re right about Lord of the Rings; Gothmog and certainly Ungoliant I can peg as Epic, but high Paragon Solo looks better for the mook of Moria. >:)
Balors were AIR an underpowered CR 16 in 3.0, I agree that ca level 16 or 17 solo looks right for 4e, then most demon lords can be in the ca 19-22 range, some higher. That really opens up Epic Tier if you have a wide range of unique & major foes across the tier, and deals with the “it’s too long” complaint I’ve seen recently. People say it’s too long because they see it as E1-E3, slogging through endless dungeons to finally kill one major BBEG. The ‘Epic’ AD&D campaign I ran with you, with new worlds, new adventures and new BBEGs pretty well every session, was a much better approach I think.
Upper_Krust
January 3, 2012
Balors definately work better as mid-paragon tier solo enemies. I think a few monsters could really do with a releveling: Ancient Red Dragons (Level 20 Solo), Tarrasque (Level 20 Super-Solo – essentially to be fought as the end of the Paragon Tier monster).
In many ways I wonder if the various ranks work differently:
Heroic Tier: Works best by halving hit points.
Paragon Tier: Retain hit points as per official rules
Epic Tier: Double monster hit points.
Re: Our campaign. Our typical immortal adventures were basically 1-4 encounters. Yet they were far more grandiose than anything WotC cooked up in the E-series modules. I think that while you had fewer encounters, individually almst every encounter was bordering on a 50/50 chance of survival…maybe slightly tipped in my favour since Thrin was uber min-maxed and I had the Monster Manuals and Deities & Demigods books memorised. 😉
While there was no formula to such adventures, if you had to boil that sort of approach down to its essence:
SIDE QUEST (The MacGuffin)
– Encounter #1: Journey to the AREA where the MACGUFFIN is located (assumes area is hostile, if not, skip this and go to Encounter #2)
– Encounter #2: Get past the SECONDARY DEFENSES of the MACGUFFIN’s resting place(assumes the MACGUFFIN actually has secondary defenses, if not skip this and go to Encounter #3)
– Encounter #3: Penetrate the PRIMARY DEFENSES and acquire the MACGUFFIN
MAIN QUEST (The BBEG)
– Encounter #1: Journey to the AREA where the BBEG dwells (assumes area is hostile, if not, skip this and go to Encounter #2)
– Encounter #2: Assault the STRONGHOLD of the BBEG (assumes the BBEG actually has a stronghold, if not skip this and go to Encounter #3)
– Encounter #3: Penetrate the THRONE ROOM of the BBEG (the showdown)
S'mon
January 3, 2012
I was looking in my folder of 4th edition monster adaptations this morning & I noticed I’d already done a Balor as a 17th level Solo, exactly as suggested! Great minds & all that. 🙂
S'mon
January 3, 2012
“While there was no formula to such adventures, if you had to boil that sort of approach down to its essence:..”
Yep – basically a 3-encounter Beginning/Middle/Climax model, similar to the WoTC Epic Dungeon Delves, but usually on a wider scale.
This deals with the issue that there should not be all that much Epic level stuff in the multiverse, if Heroic & Paragon adventures are to be meaningful: you can have vast Heroic tier dungeons, smaller Paragon-tier centres of power, but Epic ‘spikes’ should be relatively rare, individually fairly small – but defeating one should have a major impact. This creates the feeling that Epic PCs make history with their every move; which I think is good.
Upper_Krust
January 3, 2012
I wonder what the sweetspot number of encounters would be?
Heroic Tier Adventures: About 9-12 encounters
Paragon Tier Adventures: About 6-8 encounters
Epic Tier Adventures: About 3-4 encounters
S'mon
January 3, 2012
IME the sweet spot for a substantial Heroic Tier adventure is around 6-7 encounters, though shorter ones also work. I don’t have experience to comment on 4e Paragon but I’d suspect 4-5, then 2-3 for Epic.
Looking at it more in terms of sessions, though, I think 4 sessions is ok at Heroic Tier, though it feels pretty long, then fewer (2-3?) at Paragon, and only 1-2 at Epic. I think the 30-encounter, 10-session model is pretty appalling for most adventures, far too long.
S'mon
January 3, 2012
“Balors definately work better as mid-paragon tier solo enemies. I think a few monsters could really do with a releveling: Ancient Red Dragons (Level 20 Solo), Tarrasque (Level 20 Super-Solo – essentially to be fought as the end of the Paragon Tier monster).”
I think the Monster Vault Elder dragons make good ancient dragons, eg the level 22 Elder Red would do for something like Ancalagon from the Silmarilion. The MV strangely lacks the kind of low-Paragon adult dragons which I would think should be the staple of dragon ecology; the Monster Builder lets you level Young ones up and Elder ones down, but it’s not completely satisfactory. If I were doing a Monster Manual I’d do Reds as something like:
Wyrmling – level 4 Elite, Medium
Young – level 7 Solo as MV, Large
Young Adult – level 10 Solo, Large
Adult – level 12 Solo, Huge
Old – level 17 Solo, Huge
Ancient – level 20 Solo, Huge
Elder Wyrm – level 22 Solo as per MV, but Gargantuan
Upper_Krust
January 3, 2012
I think I’d do the dragons as follows:
Small size: Levels 1-5 Elite
Medium size: Levels 1-5 Solo (White = 1, Red = 5 etc.)
Large size: Levels 6-10 Solo
Huge size: Levels 11-15 Solo
Gargantuan size: Levels 16-20 Solo
Mega-size (big as a castle): Levels 21-25 Super-solo
Giga-size (big as a mountain): Levels 26-30 Super-solo
Plus you would have multiple stat-blocks at different ranks for the same ages.
Ancient Red = Level 20 Solo
Old Red = Level 20 Elite
Adult Red = Level 19 Standard
Young Red = Level 22 Minion
Wyrmling Red Swarm = Level 15 Standard
Dave
January 3, 2012
S’mon:
Ancalagon a lvl 22 elder dragon?!?! You have got to be kidding. Acalagon was the equivalent of the Midgard Serpent in Tolkien’s Mythology. It destroyed mountains when it fell. I see it as a lvl 30+ super solo. I do admit that I have a soft spot of “Rushing Jaws” though. To each his own I guess.
S'mon
January 3, 2012
I definitely wouldn’t equate Ancalagon with the Midgard Serpent, no. It wasn’t 25,000 miles long, it was bred under a mountain and must have been smaller than one! Level 22 Solo would do fine for me, albeit I’d be fine with 24 too. Ungoliant might be level 26 solo, temp boosted to 30 after her big feast, Morgoth fading from level 35 solo to ca level 30 by the end of the First Age.
Dave
January 3, 2012
I am not talking about size, but the placement in their respect cosmos. Tolkien has commented that this is how he viewed Ankalagon and that it would return in his version of Ragnarak (spelling). This is, of course, not cannon – just is thoughts.
Also, Ungoliant was apparently more powerful than Morgoth (Morgoth escaped with the help of the balrogs) after feasting, so she should be around 36-37 solo if you put Morgoth at level 35.
Thought to be honest it is hard to “accurately” model Tolkien’s god and dietes because they were literary devices, not strict stat blocks.
Mr.Satan (Yes. That one.)
October 17, 2019
Not a Hecaton. Remember that myth about a race of men who were conjoined? Then the gods destroyed them? That was them. I’ll find it for you.
Mr.Satan
October 17, 2019
In his dialogue The Symposium, Plato has Aristophanes present a story about soulmates. Aristophanes states that humans originally had four arms, four legs, and a single head made of two faces. He continues that there were three genders: man, woman and the “Androgynous”, each with two sets of genitalia with the Androgynous having both male and female genitalia. The men were children of the sun, the women were children of the earth and the Androgynous were children of the moon, which was born of the sun and earth. It is said that humans had great strength at the time and threatened to conquer the gods. The gods were then faced with the prospect of destroying the humans with lightning as they had done with the Titans but then they would lose the tributes given to the gods by humans. Zeus developed a creative solution by splitting humans in half as punishment for humanity’s pride and doubling the number of humans who would give tribute to the gods. These split humans were in utter misery to the point where they would not eat and would perish so Apollo had sewn them up and reconstituted their bodies with the navel being the only remnant harking back to their original form. Each human would then only have one set of genitalia and would forever long for his/her other half; the other half of his/her soul. It is said that when the two find each other, there is an unspoken understanding of one another, that they feel unified and would lie with each other in unity and would know no greater joy than that.
Upper_Krust
October 18, 2019
Howdy Mr Satan,
interesting stuff. Might be cool to have these powerful pre-humans (some who escaped their punishment) as an epic race.
I’m working on some new epic books now, but I’ll announce stuff when its closer to release. 😉
Mr.Satan
October 18, 2019
I still lurk even on Enworld. I just don’t post often. I check Enworld at least once a week. I’m still interested in any 3.5 stuff that may have slipped between the filing cabinets and definitely interested in templates and abominations.
Upper_Krust
October 19, 2019
Howdy Mr.Satan,
I’ve been away a while doing other things but I will be getting back into RPG stuff in 2020 and beyond.
The new stuff will be 5th edition but it will cover (eventually) all the missing epic material I never got around to in 3.5E.
The first planned new epic book will include some completely new Abominations. Its not the same as the old format Bestiary, I am trying something a little different but I think it will have a better mix of monsters while at the same time being more focused (if those two things are not anachronistic).
S'mon
January 3, 2012
“Re: Paragon play. I think what you are likely to find the further you delve into that tier is the PCs churning through same level monsters significantly faster. I know you usually compensate for that with more monsters but I’ll be interested to see how the halving of hit points works in the Paragon tier.”
I don’t want fights to drag on, and I like epic fights with lots of monsters, powerful monsters, and relatively fast advancement, ie levelling once per 3 3-hour sessions. If you run 4e RAW then IME PCs don’t level at anything like the anticipated once per 10 hours, it’s much slower – too slow for a 3-hour-session fortnightly campaign.
Halving hp lets me use more Elites and Solos, and have huge battles. If anything the risk is that the threat level is *too* high; MV Elites do double standard damage, but then they Action Point in round 1 and do quadruple! It’s very easy to kill PCs in the first combat round that way.
Upper_Krust
January 3, 2012
Didn’t know that MV Elites did double damage, interesting.
I think the important dynamic in the higher tiers is going to be the synergistic effect between the PCs.
In the Heroic Tier a standard monster will probably last about 4 rounds under normal conditions.
In the Paragon Tier a standard monster will probably last 3 rounds under normal conditions.
In the Epic Tier a standard monster will probably last 2 rounds under normal conditions.
So any given Standard, Elite and Solo monster is only HALF as effective in the Epic Tier as it is in the Heroic Tier.
So in effect my Super-solo monster rules only just fix the imbalance making (Super)Solo monsters as effective at the Epic Tier as Solo monsters were in the Heroic Tier.
I know that you halve hit points but increase monster numbers (by 50% I’ll guess on average). To maintain the same threat level you probably want to up that by about 25% in the paragon tier and a further 25% in the epic tier.
S'mon
January 3, 2012
“I know that you halve hit points but increase monster numbers (by 50% I’ll guess on average” – that’s right, that keeps the overall threat level constant – starts off 50% higher, but declines more rapidly.
My expectation is that in Paragon I’ll use more over-level monsters, and at Epic, if I get there, both more over-level and more elites & solos – handily most published Epic critters are Elites & Solos! 🙂
My guess would be that a 13th level party could handle a level 17 half-hp Solo ok. I suspect a fresh, optimised, 6-PC 11th level party could do it.
Dave
January 3, 2012
Simon and UK
Here are a couple of quick comments for ya:
Heroic, Paragon and Epic:
I really liked UKs ideas about Epic tier not being epic enough, so I decided to take his suggestion to reduce monster levels. My solution was to simply reduce all non-unique monsters’ levels by 1/3 (lvl 30 becomes lvl 20) but to keep the damage expression as originally stated. Thus an ancient red dragon is now level 20 solo for all attacks and defenses, but the damage remains the same as an updated (MM3) level 30 monster. This puts the monsters at the correct lvl and increases the damage/threat per level. This has been really easy to do with DDI adventure tools.
However, I am not reducing the level of my demon lords and gods. If I need lower level versions they will be aspects and/or avatars (though I may incorporate your home plane ideas). I like demon lords, devils, primordials and deities being lvl 25-lvl 40 solos.
Red Dragon example:
Wyrmling: lvl 5 elite (small)
Young: lvl 5 solo (medium)
Adult: lvl 10 solo (large)
Elder: lvl 15 solo (huge)
Ancient: lvl 20 solo (gargantuan), lvl 25 elite, lvl 30 standard, lvl 35 minion, lvl 40 swarm?
Great Wyrm: lvl 25 solo (colossal, 5×5)
Balor example:
lvl 17 elite, I don’t see any reason to incease its role to solo.
Kronos/ super solo:
Am I correct that the only difference between a solo and a supper solo is the hit points? Every 5 reduction in lvl = x2 hit points, is that correct (would a 10 lvl reduction by x3 or x4 hit points)? If I understand it, the point of this is to reduce the attacks and defenses of these super solos so that PCs could engage the monster, but make it extra difficult by massively increasing the hit points.
For some reason I thought you were going to actually have 2 stat blocks when you said a super solo would act like 2 solos (similar to you Kali). I guess they are not mutually exclusive though. It might make a super-solo battle more interesting if it had multiple stat blocks (an possible more manageable for the DM).
I agree there is a particular elegance with this solution, but I would worry about battle fatigue with the massive hit points, but to be honest – I am a big fan of massive hit points?
Upper_Krust
January 3, 2012
Hey Dave! 🙂
I’ll stay out of the Tolkein discussion having never read the Silmarillion myself. :p
Re: Scaling Down the Monsters. I suppose whatever works for you. The problem with a lot of the official levels are that they basically shunt all the ‘kewl’ monsters to the back end of the epic tier. Every level of the epic tier should be choc full of Iconic monsters.
Re: Kronos. Yes you are correct. I’m not yet sure whether -10 Levels should be x3 hit points/stat-blocks or x4 (leaning towards the latter). If you keep using the supersolo scaling method then the x4 (double-double) approach means the number of stat-blocks gets out of hand REALLY fast. But if you don’t use it then monsters get easier for each additional stat-block you give them after the first. I actually have a Giga-sized -10 Level Quod stat-block version of the Elder God/Primordial Mahisha that I just need to finish typing up. That will be AWESOME trust me. 😉
Re: Supersolo’s in general. Yes they typically have two completely different stat-blocks. But I wanted to incorporate the tic-tac-toe encounter design and I didn’t think we needed two seperate stat-blocks PLUS the encounter map stuff. It was basically overkill. I may do a seperate stat-block after the movies release.
Re: Massive Hit Points. Supersolo’s were primarily designed for the Epic Tier and I really don’t think you’ll end up with battle fatigue going by some of the epic tier battle reports I have read. In play, Kronos will be lucky to last more than one round against a tough epic party in each of his stages (ie. every 700 hp).
Dave
January 4, 2012
UK:
Massive Hit Points: I have not played Epic tier yet, but I have read about the issues and it is my understanding that the 600-700hp DPR result from the use of encounter and/or daily powers as well. So the PCs may not be able to keep up that amount of damage indefinitely.
Dave
January 3, 2012
Weren’t the Hekatonkeres supposed to be equal in size to the titans and giants? If the creatures represented are Hekatonkeres it seems odd that they would go small on these when they have gone large on everything else.
But I agree, the desing is pretty cool.
Upper_Krust
January 3, 2012
Someone suggested in the thread on ENWorld that it might be Geryon rather than a Hekatonkeres, I suppose we’ll see in 3 months time.
Upper_Krust
January 3, 2012
Someone mentioned in the RPGnet thread that there was a flaw in the -5 Level determination and I must say I find myself in agreement with them.
Basically, 2 solo monsters would be a +4 Level encounter. But 2 solo monsters would be more difficult than 1 solo monster with double the amount of hit points. So in effect what I have created is more akin to a +/-3 Level difference.
However, I really want it to be a +5 difference. So I am wondering what minor tweaks I could make to Super-solos…?
For instance the difference between Elite and Solo is +5 Levels (worth of XP) and the changes are: x2.5 hp, +3 to saves, +1 action point, likely 1 more action per round.
Any suggestions? Technically the Super-solo already has 2 additional action points and x2 hit points.
Dave
January 4, 2012
I’m not sure at the moment, but I will think about it. Also, remember that with 2 solos one will probably be finished off first, thus reduce the threat at some point in the encounter.
Upper_Krust
January 4, 2012
Hi Dave,
True, but thats the same disparity between 2 Elites and 1 Solo. I think if we examine the differences then there are four elements that change:
1. Hit Points
2. Action Points
3. Saving Throw bonuses
4. The number of actions.
I think the key here may be in removing my Boss Monster (two turns per round) Trait from all Solo-monsters and only applying it to Super-solo’s. With everything else effectively doubling (x2 hp, x2 AP, two saves per round, twice as many actions), it therefore fulfills the +/-4 level difference and we can say that the diminishing returns of two seperate monsters (when one is killed off) grants us just enough justice for assigning a +/-5 level difference. Particularly when we would be doubling the number of actions per round when the difference between Standard and Elite and subsequently Elite and Solo (for instance) is not a doubling of actions.
However, that also brings up another problem, what if we wanted a three stat-block monster. We would then need to quadruple hit points, action points, save attempts and actions to keep a +/-5 model.
It may just be simpler to change to a +/-3 (?) model that just does the following:
1. Doubles hit points of a solo monster.
2. 1 Action point allowed per round (rather than a set amount).
3. Each additional stat-block doubles hit points and doubles the number of Action Points usable per round.
ie. With two additional stat-blocks (three in total), a Super-solo would have x4 hit points (beyond a solo that is) and be able to use 2 Action points each round! ie. With three additional stat-blocks (four in total), a Super-solo would have x8 hit points (beyond a solo that is) and be able to use 4 Action points each round!
e.g. Orcus (Super-solo version with 3 stat-blocks) would be 6-10 levels lower but have approx. 4000 hp and the ability to use 2 AP’s per round.
Dave
January 4, 2012
UK,
I personally rather add turns or off turn actions than simply adding action points. Action points only add on turn actions. This will increase rhe damage, but I think it would be a less dynamic battle.
Using your role scaling criteria (stacking):
Standard – Elite: 2x HP, +1 attack (double attack), + 0-1 trigger, +2 saving throws, +1 action point = 5 levels
Elite – Solo: 2xHP, +1-2 attacks (off turn, multiple turns, minor actions), +0-1 trigger, +3 saving throws, +1 action point = 5 levels
The scaling is mostly linear (saving throws being a noticeable difference), thus I would suggest simply:
Solo – SuperSolo: 2x HP, +1-2 attacks, +0-1 trigger, +1 use of a saving throw (begining of turn), +1 action point = 5 levels
or
Solo-SuperSolo: 2x HP, +0-1 trigger, +1 use of saving throw (begining of turn), 1 action point/round (keep the multiple turns) = 5 levels
Just some thoughts
Dave
January 4, 2012
UK:
Another option instead of increasing the number of attacks for a super-solo would be to increase the damage of each attack. Maybe:
Solo – SuperSolo: 2x HP, +50% to damage, +1 use of a saving throw (begining of turn), +1 action point = 5 levels
Dave
January 5, 2012
UK,
On Super Solos:
As an exercise I did a quick update of the Dragon of Tyr to make it an Elder God (lvl 50 start) and then use the super solo roles to make it lvl 35. Here are the changes I made:
Solo – Super Solo:
Reduce level to 45
2x HP
+1 action point
Add 1 turn of actions (3 total, Dragon of Tyr already had 3, so no change)
+1 to 2 defenses
Ability scores remain at lvl 50
Super Solo – Mega Solo:
Reduce level to 40
2x HP
+1 action point
Increase static damage by 50%
+1 to 2 defenses
Ability scores remain at lvl 50
Mega Solo – Ultra Solo:
Reduce level to 35
2x HP
+1 action point
Increase static damage by 50%
+1 to 2 defenses
Ability scores remain at lvl 50
I had intended to increase the hit accuracy when going from Super Solo to Mega Solo and again to Ultra Solo, but I forgot to do it. Anyway you can see one half of the adjustments here: http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/dave2008/large/448dffc52b21371882b19aafdbc8cc13.jpg?v=74700
It would need another stat block for the “bloodied” state and I would also probably make more tweaks (minor actions, trigger actions), but this was just a test of the concept
Upper_Krust
January 5, 2012
Hey Dave, I was out at the gym otherwise I would have posted earlier.
Thanks to your help I have solved the super-solo problem. The difference should only increase damage by +25% (the same as the increase for Brute damage…of course this would stack with brute damage to be +50%). etc.
I’ll go over the math for Mega and Ultra (as you put it) solo monsters sometime tonight but at first glance this seems to fix everything. Technically the +25% damage should increase to 31.25% and then 39%…but I think sticking to +25% is far more elegant.
I’m not sure about the increase to defenses – seems self-defeating lowering the level in the first place. I do like the idea of retaining the original ability scores though.
So basically for each stage of supersolo you create.
1. Hit Points x2
2. Damage +25%
3. (Probably) 1 Action Point per round
4. (Probably) Retain original ability scores…or you could just say +2.5 to each ability score (round fractions down).
Dave
January 5, 2012
That sounds good to me.
However, I would rather just add +1 AP per jump as a standard and an extra turn at super-solo. On the other hand, the 1AP/round could be used to replace the extra action.
Also, I am not sure if you are saying this or not, but I am not sure I would add the +25% damage going from solo – super solo, just above super solo. I quick looks at the numbers:
std attack, lvl 30 solo: 36hp avg.
std attack, lvl 30 solo brute: 45 hp avg.
encounter attack, lvl 30 solo brute: 67 hp avg.
std attack, lvl 30 super solo: 45hp avg.
std attack, lvl 30 super solo brute: 56 hp avg.
encounter attack, lvl 30 super solo brute: 84 hp avg.
std attack, lvl 30 mega solo: 56hp avg.
std attack, lvl 30 mega solo brute: 70 hp avg.
encounter attack, lvl 30 mega solo brute: 105 hp avg.
std attack, lvl 30 ultra solo: 70hp avg.
std attack, lvl 30 ultra solo brute: 88 hp avg.
encounter attack, lvl 30 ultra solo brute: 132 hp avg.
That doesn’t look to bad actually. It looks like that will work (encounter powers for brutes are near insta-kills, but I like that!). I think I would put most of the damage increase in the static damage to reduce the swinginess and insta-kills. Maybe it should be +50% to static damage per jump? Let’s see:
std attack, lvl 30 solo: 4d8+20 = 36hp avg.
std attack, lvl 30 super solo: 5d8+25 = 45hp avg. = 65 max (+25%)
std attack, lvl 30 super solo: 4d8+30 = 46hp avg. = 62 max (+50% to static)
std attack, lvl 30 mega solo: 5d10+31 = 56hp avg. = 81 max (+25%)
std attack, lvl 30 mega solo: 4d8+45 = 61hp avg. = 77 max (+50% to static)
std attack, lvl 30 ultra solo: 5d12+40 = 70hp avg. = 100 max (+25%)
std attack, lvl 30 ultra solo: 4d8+67 = 83hp avg. = 99 max (+50% to static)
Well, they came out pretty close to each other. I think it may be easier to increase the static damage 50%. This will increase the average damage a bit, gut this would make it closer to the 31-39% increase for total avg. damage that you came up with.
Anyway, I think you’ve solved it. Now to make my Primordial Elder God, Lord of Chaos, a level 35 Ultra-Solo!
Upper_Krust
January 6, 2012
Hi Dave,
I usually go with the following outline for attacks:
Base = Level + 8 (halved for minions)
Encounter Action = 150%
Recharge 4, 5 Action = 125%
Standard Action = 100%
Move Action = 75%
Minor Action or Triggered = 50%
So Solo 30
Encounter Action = 57
Recharge 4, 5 Action = 48
Standard Action = 38
Move Action = 29
Minor Action or Triggered = 19
Super-Solo 30 Brute
Encounter Action = 76
Recharge 4, 5 Action = 67
Standard Action = 57
Move Action = 48
Minor Action or Triggered = 38
Dave
January 6, 2012
Hey UK:
level+8, OK. I was just using the updated damage expressions from the DMG errata
However, I am confussed by your super solo brute numbers:
Souldn’t they be:
Encounter = 57×1.25=71.25×1.25 = 89
Recharge = 48×1.25=60×1.25 = 75
Standard = 38×1.25=47.5×1.25 = 59
Move = 29×1.25 = 36.25×1.25 = 45
Minor = 19×1.25=23.75×1.25 = 30
What am I missing?
Upper_Krust
January 6, 2012
Hey Dave,
Its 50% – 75% – 100% – 125% – 150% – 175% etc.
Its not 100% – 125% – 156.25% – 195.3125%
The +25% increase is added to the base each time, not multiplied over the top of every other increase.
Brute damage is 125%, a Brute recharge 4/5 power is 150%, not 156.25%.
Dave
January 6, 2012
OK, that wasn’t how I interpreted the damage guidlines. Just reviewed the DMG update and I see what you mean, but I still feel it could be read the other way. Now to do some research:
The DDI monster builder has a neat little damage “workshop” for monster powers. It has 3 fields: dice; dmg amount (low -25%/medium/high+25%); avg. dmg. You can also specify normal or limited use, but not # of targets. You can also toggle between roles and the damage automatically updates.
If I make a standard power for a soldier and convert it to a recharge power for a brute it goes from an avg. 39 dmg to an avg. 72.25 dmg. This is a 85% increase not the 73.5% expected if the 24.5% (to brute) & 49% (to recharge) increases were added as you suggest (note: the “low” limited use option defaults to a 49% increase in damage, not the 25% increase suggested in the DMG update)
Is this definative, absolutely not. I quick look at the books drove me crazy trying to figure out were their numbers came from. Then the fact that the low limited expression was a 49% increase also cast some doubt on the accuracy of the program.
However, I feel comfortable enough with my approach to continue using it (and not completely revising my spreadsheet!)
What does that mean for super-solos? Not sure, they are your baby, so I guess what ever you want. I like the x 1.25 per jump because it will get you closer to the 31-39% increase you suggested. But I think they are close enough either way to not make a huge difference.
P.S. I am finalizing my first quad-block Ultra-solo and was thinking about posting it on the D&D forums. I would naturally have to explain super-solos a bit (and refer them here of course), would that be a problem?
Upper_Krust
January 6, 2012
Hi Dave,
Feel free to post your super-solo examples, though give a link to this website and be sure to post here a link to the place you are putting up the stats. 🙂
Supersolo’s tie into the Mega-size rules, although there is a bit more to the mega-size rules (primarily movement and spacing issues).
I’ve toyed about with a number of different builds and tables for 4E (beyond epic tiers). These work in tandem with the Maga-size rules. So the whole thing is like one big jigsaw. I have all the right pieces, I’m just working out the best order to put them in. 😉
Dave
January 7, 2012
Thanks UK. I will be sure to cross link. I have basically finished it, but I will probably take a week to tweak it before I post it.
Ya, I wish i had a full grasp of the mega-size rules as I would likely use them for beast I am working on. As it is, I made it a gargantuan 20×20 size monster. May be good, may be bad.
Upper_Krust
January 11, 2012
Hey Dave,
I did some more brainstorming of this a day or two ago and your first suggestion of +50% damage may have been more accurate.
It seems:
2 stat blocks = +50% damage
3 stat blocks = +100% damage
4 stat-blocks = +150% damage
As such 4 stat-blocks would seemingly be the theoretical maximum you could probably get away with.
I think at the epic tier, the effectiveness of the monsters is diminished about 4-5 levels. Meaning an Elite at the epic tier is about as effective as a Standard monster in the Heroic Tier.
So at the epic tier Elite is the new Standard Monster, Solo is the new Elite and Super-solo (2 stat-block) is the new Solo.
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February 6, 2013
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Upper_Krust
May 27, 2013
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What’s the link to your blog and who are you?