Just to note there will be a second component to this (Dragon stats) when I get enough time to finish them (hopefully a day or two).
A few topics ago, I mentioned that Dragons in 4th Edition were not proper Epic Tier monsters. So this article seeks to address why that is and offer some alternatives.
Just Not Epic Enough…
The dragons in the game cover the whole spectrum of levels but the dragons of the later age categories are not really any more powerful other than basic statistical changes. Now you could say that its statistically better – therefore its better. But in terms of a threat to a large area (say a country) an ancient dragon isn’t that much more destructive than a mere adult dragon.
If It Ain’t Broke, Why Fix It?
The dragons in the books work perfectly well, so why even bother messing with them? If a house doesn’t have solid foundations, then building another storey (or tier shall we say) is likely to be a ramshackle affair and fall down on your face. Basically dragons in 4E at the epic tier are simply not daunting opponents. They are not monsters that can threaten an empire or world and without ‘fixing’ them we cannot really begin to build ‘proper’ epic tier dragons.
So my proposal is that to make your game epic the existing dragons in 4E need to be brought down a peg or two as follows.
- Gargantuan Dragons = 16-20 Solo (White 16, Black 17, Green 18, Blue 19, Red 20 etc.)
- Huge Dragon = 11-15 Solo
- Large Dragon = 6-10 solo
- Medium Dragon = 1-5 Solo
- Small Dragon = 1-5 Elite
The benefits of this approach are that you can easily slide ranks up and down to better create a Dragons Lair, for instance.
Late Paragon Tier: Dragon’s Lair (Ancient Red Dragon)
- Gargantuan Red Dragon Mother = Level 20 Solo Soldier
- Huge Red Dragon’s Mate = Level 20 Elite Soldier
- Large Red Dragon’s Offspring (those about to leave the lair and start their own families) = Level 19 Standard Soldiers
- Medium Red Dragon’s Children = Level 22 Minion Soldiers
- Small Red Dragon’s Babies = Level 15 Standard Soldier (Swarms)
As you can see above, reducing the gaps between age categories/sizes to 5 levels better enables each age category to interact with one another (by reducing the level spread).
Late Paragon Tier: The Darksword Knights
One bunch of recurring foes fought in Simon’s early campaign were the Darksword Knights. A bunch of Lawful Evil, Druaga worshipping warriors who also had a pact with Tiamat that supplied them with dragon eggs which they then raised into maturity and used for steeds. Anyway, I was thinking (in what I think is a deviation) that each chapter of the order (of which there are 5) would have its own master and they would reside in a different location/climate and be restricted to raising Dragons of a single type. Collectively the Darksword Knights would fall under the eadership of the most powerful chapter (possibly the Red Dragon chapter).
- Grandmaster of the Darksword Knights = Level 20 Elite Soldier…rides a Huge Dragon
- Masters of the Darksword Knights = Levels 16-19 Elites (mainly Soldiers)…ride Huge Dragons
- Darksword Knight = Level 16-20 Soldiers…ride Large Dragons
- Darksword Warrior = Level 16-20 Minion Soldiers
- Darksword Marauder = Level 17-21 Mobs
Early Epic Tier: Dragonflight
One of the suggestions I made in the Ten Commandments of Epic article was that epic characters should be fighting against whole squadrons of dragons. Making the above level changes lets drop everything down a rank and see what happens:
- Gargantuan Red Dragon = Level 25 Elite Soldier
- Huge Red Dragon = Level 24 Soldier
- Large Red Dragon = Level 27 Minion Soldiers
Again the level spread is kept fairly tight and you could easily introduce a large force of dragons (possibly with riders) to threaten a nation and its heroes.
But What About Epic Dragons Then?
Making the above changes opens up the entire Epic Tier (and beyond). So what do we do to fill that gap? In 3rd Edition dragons more powerful than the regular breeds were refered to as Epic Dragons (which were basically Divine Dragons). I later added to that Cosmic (Space Dragons) and Nehaschimic (Interdimensional Dragons). Others then proposed Muhlatimic for those living outside our universe. So simply to take advantage of the different tiers in 4E I suggest the following:
- Epic (Divine) Dragons = +10 Levels (Mega-sized…like Godzilla)
- Cosmic (Space) Dragons = +20 Levels (Giga-sized…about the size of a mountain)
- Eschatolic (Doomsday) Dragons = +30 Levels (Tera-sized…about the size of a planet)
- still pondering over the rest for now.
Now you might think, well at +30 levels no one will ever need Eschatolic Dragons but here’s the clever bit. Sizes bigger than Gargantuan (such as Mega, Giga, Tera etc.) all use the super-solo rules.
Super-Solo Rules?
Okay, I was planning to post up the Super-Solo rules here after the Vampire Bestiary is released (and thats still the plan). But I suppose it won’t hurt to give people a sense of the basic mechanic. Super-solo monster’s have multiple stat-blocks. Nothing new there of course, Lolth in Monster Manual 3 has two stat-blocks for instance. The difference here is that they have multiple FULL SOLO stat-blocks. Each new stat-block also drops the monster down 5 Levels.
So lets say Tiamat (an Ancient Epic Dragon) was a Level 30 Solo Monster. But because she is Mega-sized she gains an extra stat-block and her level drops by 5. So she would be a Level 25 Mega-solo Monster. So fighting Tiamat would be akin to battling TWO Solo monsters back to back.
If we assume Typhon is an Ancient Cosmic Dragon was a Level 36 Solo Monster, then because he was Giga-sized he would gain TWO extra stat-blocks but his level would drop by 10. So Typhon would be a Level 26 Giga-solo Monster. So Typhon would be like fighting THREE Solo monsters end to end.
Of course the above is just the basic mechanic for setting the level. Not the full rules for running Super-solo’s. But I think they give a clear idea of how powerful monsters can be at the Epic and subsequent Immortal Tier.
The main problem with Super-solo monsters is of course the same problems that affect solo monsters in general..only amplified. So you need to take extra care to craft super-solo monsters into challenging and exciting opponents who can hold the interest of a party.
Collateral Damage
When we create epic or immortal tier dragons one of the things we need to implement is how they affect the geography of a location. If we look at say, a Godzilla movie, what we notice is that a full city would just get devastated in a matter of minutes through a combination of Godzilla either simply stomping about, attacking buildings physically or using other powers like his atomic breath. So most mega-size creatures would cause earthquakes (stomping), hurricanes (flying) or tidal waves (swimming) simply by their movements.
- Mega sized: Destroy a city inside a few minutes, destroy a building in one round.
- Giga-sized: Destroy a country inside a few minutes, destroy a city in one round.
- Tera-sized: destroy a planet inside a few minutes, destroy a country in one round.
Another aspect of monsters of this magnitude is that they leave behind a lot of devastation in their wake. So they’ll create zones that will last until the end of the encounter (at least): flooded areas, falling masonry, difficult terrain etc.
Eternity Publishing 
Dave
July 8, 2011
Thank you for the preview of the super-solo rules, but to be honest I haven’t wrapped my mind around them yet. I give a more thorough look when I have more time.
I think lowering the level makes sense with your take on “Epic.” Personally though, I am starting to think that in my campaign “Epic” starts at 30+ and 21-30 are an extend “Paragon.” So I would move the gods, demon lords, primordials, epic monsters, etc. up in level.
Also, I love the Demodragon pic – very nice!
Dave
July 8, 2011
UK:
Once again I want congratulate you about making a good use of a core 4e monster mechanic , monster ranks. I wish this had been more thoroughly explained/explored in the DMG, because changing the rank of the monster as the PC increase in level really creates a sense of accomplishment. It also, provides a way to “increase” the relative damage output of the PCs without actually increase the dice damage greatly (though this does increase anyway – I think that is a flaw and not intended in the design).
Super-Solo:
I like where this is going. I think the multiple stat blocks will actually make it easier to create a unique encounter with one monster (similar to your statue of Kali). However, why do you drop the level by 5 per size category?
Also, I am concerned about the number of hit points such a beast would have. It seems like a much greater threat than a typical solo, do you get XP for “both” and balance the encounter that way?
Collateral Damage:
Interesting ideas and I like them, I just don’t have a clue how to implement mechanically.
FieryDragonLord
July 8, 2011
These are very interesting ideas. I have a question for you UK: What types of dragons are in the categories (Example: Nehaschimics: Nexus, Black Hole,and Quasar)?
Upper_Krust
July 9, 2011
Hi Dave,
This isn’t really a preview of the super-solo rules, more a preview of a preview. But the basic mechanic is that they get more than one stat-block and for each additional they drop 5 levels. So for instance we could make the current Orcus a Level 28 super-solo (instead of Level 33 solo).
The Epic Tier is in a weird place right now. Not only is it virtually unsupported (for which I blame myself) but what has initially been detailed of the tier has ben very underwhelming. Hence my thoughts (and fears) that I, in some way, need to fix the Epic Tier before addressing a possible Immortal Tier. I just think few will play through a lacklustre Epic Tier to get to the unknown quantity of an Immortal Tier.
Plus I keep going on about the inflaion of D&D Monster levels. The demon lords and princes should be low-epic tier opponents, not reserved for the end of a campaign. Epic campaigns should be about short, sharp adventures featuring the iconic personalities of the game, not just about fighting a Balor, Dragon, but instead dozens of Balors and Dragons at a time.
I do like the monster rank mechanic…even more than WotC it appears.
Re: Super-solo’s
The 5 level drop is basically to mimic the 5 level increase between Elite and Solo. I actually think a 5 level difference between Minion – Standard – Elite – Solo – Super-solo would ultimately be preferable. I had looked at various incarnations of how to implement the super-solo rules and had started with -8 levels, but -5 simplifies things immensely.
The hit points for super-solo’s shouldn’t be a problem. the reason being that, firstly, Epic tier characters REALLY hit hard. But I also want them to be frightening opponents that may force you to retreat or even call upon allies.
Yes you get XP for all parts. The Idol of Kali monster uses a similar concept, except that its composed of three Elite rank monster stat-blocks, instead of multiple solo stat-blocks.
Re: Collateral Damage
Yes, I sort of just started typing (ie. rambling) about this and then realised if I keep going I’ll have to explain the super-solo mechanics in their entirety just to make sense of it all. There are a half dozen different aspects to the mechanics (some optional like parasites) but I just want to keep it as simple as possible, I think thats the key.
Upper_Krust
July 9, 2011
Hey FieryDragonLord,
Well I am probably going to do a bit of tweaking about.
Epic Dragon (Gods)
Rather than base dragons on character classes, I think in 4E a better approach will be to base them on power sources:
Martial = Titanium/Orichalcum
Arcane = Polychromatic/Rune
Divine = Platinum (or maybe Celestial/Infernal)
Primal = Timber (but could explore different ideas, like the leaves, flowers and parasites)
Psionic = Ioun
Ki = ?
etc.
Cosmic (Space) Dragons
Likely use the astral bodies again: Space, Sun, Moon, Comet, Planet.
Eschatolic (Doomsday) Dragons
Opposites of the dimensions.
Anti-Matter Dragon = (Great Beast?)
Anti-Time Dragon = Kalpa
Anti-Entropy
Anti-Spirit
Anti-Fate
Anti-Thought
I think these (Anti-Dragons) were discussed further about a year ago on one of the ENWorld Eternity Publishing threads.
FieryDragonLord
July 9, 2011
Upper Krust, what would the divine ranks of the ancients of each category of dragons be?
Upper_Krust
July 10, 2011
Hey FieryDragonLord,
Going by the current incarnation of the above rules…
Epic Dragons = Lesser or Greater Gods
Cosmic Dragons = Elder or First Ones
Eschatolic Dragons = Demiurges or Time Lords
FieryDragonLord
July 10, 2011
Hmm…….. I learned all the Nehaschimic Dragons can be used as Eschatolics.
Anti-Matter = Black Hole
Anti-Entropy = Quasar
Anti-Fate = Nexus
Upper_Krust
July 11, 2011
Hello again FieryDragonLord,
Yes I think folding the Nehaschimics into the Eschatolics works well.
That just leaves new names for:
Anti-Time…
Anti-Spirit…
Anti-Thought…brainwasher?
Of course that still leaves us the Muhlatimic Dragons beyond Eschatolic.
FieryDragonLord
July 14, 2011
Anti-Time = Kalpa
Anti-Thought = Thoughtless (I like the idea of a mindless dragon)
That still leaves Anti-Spirit which is hardest to think of a name for.
Muhlatimics = Brane, Mirror
omeganian’s Muhlatimics = Destiny, Doom
I can add one name (Creation) to that list.
S'mon
July 16, 2011
Lots of good ideas here Craig. I’ve had similar thoughts re dragon sizes, levels and the need for narrower tier spacing. Currently I’ve been looking at something like:
Wyrmling: Medium-size Elites, roughly 3-7, or Solos 1-4.
Young: Large Solos, use Monster Vault stats so 3-7 Solos
Adult: Huge Solos, low Paragon – My Huge dragon minis should come in here.
Elder: Gargantuan Solos, high Paragon? My Gargantuan Black Dragon mini should come in here I think.
Great Wyrm: ? I agree that what we have of Epic dragon stats doesn’t really work.
I like the Young Dragon Monster Vault stats, they work ok for low-mid Heroic, but there’s an enormous 15-level gap between the Young and Elder dragons that covers the entire Paragon tier – and Paragon is what I’d think of as core ‘dragon slaying’ territory! For instance the famous adult red dragon in my core campaign area (Bezzalt from Lost City of Barakus) was a CR 12 Young Adult Red in 3e. In 4e I think he should be a level 12 Solo, but 4e doesn’t give me much support for statting him.
In general I agree with your view that Epic tier should be more epic, not ‘more of the same’, and I’ve never been happy with big red dragons or balors as high-Epic creatures. I’m tempted to excise the existing Great Wyrm MM dragon stats and use the MV Elders as the most powerful ‘regular’ dragons.
S'mon
July 16, 2011
Dave: “Personally though, I am starting to think that in my campaign “Epic” starts at 30+ and 21-30 are an extend “Paragon.””
I think that 4e Epic as it stands is a weird mix of ‘extended Paragon’ with genuinely ‘Epic’ themes. This incoherence can be resolved by the DM deciding which way to go – you can go the Forgotten Realms ‘extended Paragon’ route and have your evil wizard BBEGs be Level 30 Solos, or you can go the ‘Scales of War’ route and have the Epic PCs be Shapers of Reality (preferably by doing a bit more than just killing things). I think 4e potentially supports either approach, but I think combining the two, as in default Epic, raises many problems.
Dave
July 18, 2011
Simon,
That is a good observation about Epic. It is, currently, stuck in the middle and could be modified either way. I guess I just like the idead of making a clean break break at 30 into epic style of play because there are officailly rules for past 30.
Upper_Krust
July 17, 2011
Hey all, have been ridiculously busy over the past few days. But have a free 5 days now, so I should get those stats up tomorrow ish.
@FieryDragonLord
I think there are a number of potential avenues to explore with regards the Muhlatimics I am thinking of tying them in to the Higher Dimensions which themselves will get a bit of a rethink but one would definately be Mirror (former 9th Dimension).
@S’mon
Yes with hindsight we can see that the dragon spacing of 4E just doesn’t make any practical sense whatsoever. A 5-level gap works perfectly though.
The only Dragons better than Level 21 in 4E should be Dragon Gods (like Tiamat) or better…and even they should be much lower in level so they can be fought at epic level, not just Level 30.
Same thing with Balors, there is just no excuse for them to be higher than Level 20.
What you could do is fold the Paragon Tier into levels 11-15 and fold the Epic Tier into Levels 16-20
Existing 11 or 12 = 11
Existing 13 or 14 = 12
Existing 15 or 16 = 13
Existing 17 or 18 = 14
Existing 19 or 20 = 15
Existing 21 or 22 = 16
Existing 23 or 24 = 17
Existing 25 or 26 = 18
Existing 27 or 28 = 19
Existing 29 or 30 = 20
S'mon
July 18, 2011
“Yes with hindsight we can see that the dragon spacing of 4E just doesn’t make any practical sense whatsoever. A 5-level gap works perfectly though.
The only Dragons better than Level 21 in 4E should be Dragon Gods (like Tiamat) or better…and even they should be much lower in level so they can be fought at epic level, not just Level 30.
Same thing with Balors, there is just no excuse for them to be higher than Level 20.”
Dragons – what I’ve been doing for Paragon-tier dragons like Bezzalt is to input the Monster Vault Young Dragon stats into the old offline monster builder, then level them up to the appropriate level, tweaking a bit – eg I’ll increase the area of effect for breath weapons:
Young: 5×5
Adult: 10×10
Elder: 15×15
A 75′ jet of flame hardly seems excessive for a huge ancient dragon!
Anyway this isn’t ideal but I think works satisfactorily.
Uniques – I agree, they should be spread throughout Epic tier, not all clustered in the 30-35 Solo End of Campaign silo. We’re the supposed to play through an entire campaign just to fight *one* Unique in the final battle? And Epic dragons should be Uniques.
Balors – agreed, I think 4e’s Huge Balor makes a good high-Paragon Solo, for a Balrog-y feel.
James
January 23, 2012
You say that demon princes should be low-epic, then what should obyriths be? Just curious and I know it has been awhile since anyone has used this thread :p
Upper_Krust
January 23, 2012
Hey James!
I get email updates on all these threads so, it may take a day or so but I’ll always get back to you. 😉
I think the term obyriths is such a generalisation that its hard to pin down. I mean its like saying how powerful should a demon be, it sort of depends on the demon. A major demon will be more powerful than a minor demon while a demon prince will be more powerful than a major demon. Likewise obyriths will have some weaker and some more powerful types and individuals.
Its possible that the Obyriths are in some way connected to the Far Realm and as such they may be relatively weak Pseudonatural creatures.
So if I had to be drawn at this point, I’d say that the known Obyriths probably parallel the demons for the most part but that the Obyriths are really just the sub-immortal line (or one of those lines along with the Sirians, Slaad, Zoas) of Pseudonatural beings that I talked about in my Epic Bestiary book:
Krangar (Demi) < Akishra (Lesser) < Gargouille (Inter) < Cogent (Greater) < Trithemian (Elder) < Maadim (Old) < Limbus (First One)
On that scale a Demon Lord is about equal to a Krangar, while someone like Demogorgon probably sits somewhere between Akishra and Gargouille.
Incidently the Queen of Chaos may well be a powerful Gargouille.
Hope that helps? 🙂