This article seeks to explore the elements of what makes a campaign truly epic.
Chatting with people on the various forums I get the impression many are disillusioned with the whole concept of what epic really entails. This is further compounded by the official epic tier material from Wizards of the Coast which is, to date, underwhelming in both quality and quantity.
So how do you make an epic campaign feel EPIC!?
The Ten Commandments of Epic
The following is a list of ten things in my opinion a truly EPIC campaign should feature. Incidently the 4th Edition ‘E’ series of adventure modules rates a 0 out of 10 on this checklist.
1. Thou shalt feature Big Battles
In the Heroic tier you have skirmishes with perhaps a few dozen minions.
In the Paragon tier you should be waging civil wars with thousands on each side.
In the Epic tier you should be facing world wars with lone demigods battling armies numbering in the millions, planar invasions where hordes of demons and legions of devils take the field, great flying castles act like aircraft carriers while thousands of dragons dogfight around them threatening to blot out the sun.
Here’s the thing, Lord of the Rings is an epic saga, but NOT an example of the Epic Tier in action, more like mid-paragon tier. So whats an example of an epic TIER storyline…probably something along the lines of the Mahabarata where armies of millions clash with weapons of atomic power and superhero-esque demigods battle with massive cyborg beasts.
Problem
There are no official rules for staging big battles in 4th Edition. Okay so how can you run battles with hundreds let alone thousands or millions, you won’t have enough miniatures for that, and running hundreds of NPCs will take forever.
Solution
Before we had miniatures we used to play with this thing called an IMAGINATION. So don’t worry about needing miniatures all the time.
Running hundreds, thousands or even millions of troops will be easy using UNIT combat. In simplified terms each unit is treated much like a swarm. Each factor of ten increases the Level of the unit by +6. Therefore if a lone Orc Soldier is Level 3, then a unit of 10 Orc Soldiers would be Level 9 and a unit of 100 would be Level 15 etc. If you have to represent 64 Orcs then use six units of 10 and 4 individual Orcs.
One of the great benefits of unit combat is that you can also use them as enemies for the PCs. That way you can have your 25th-level fighter take on an army of 10,000 Orcs singlehandedly!
I’ll have a slightly more detailed take on the Unit Rules in the very near future because they are a prominent part of my The Serpent Riders epic tier 4E adventure (the product coming out after the Vampire Bestiary).
2. Thou shalt make the game Challenging
To quote Mike Shea from his excellent Running Epic Tier D&D Games pdf:
Be Kind to them at Heroic
Be even-handed at Paragon
Be a bastard at Epic
Problem
Its far too easy for epic characters to steamroller your encounters, and while such characters should have their moments in the sun, you need to temper this with a short sharp reality check. If the PCs think they can just walk in to a god’s house and beat them up, then you simply are not giving NPCs the proper respect. Yes the PCs should save the day, but they should also be made aware of their limitations and that there are a lot of no go areas where they’ll just get killed. The PCs should almost never be able to beat a deity or demon prince in their backyard. Too many guards, too many defenses, too prepared, too powerful…and if you can’t go through the guards and defenses you have to find a way to get around them.
In the Savage Tide adventure path from Paizo, the PCs face this exact problem. Demogorgon is simply too powerful to be directly beaten, but the PCs can find allies and artifacts to help them, while at the same time weakening Demogorgon both directly and indirectly by corrupting or killing his lieutenants. This is a much more satisfying way to handle a story than simply grinding until you are powerful enough to beat the boss.
Solution
My first suggestion would be to buy Mike Shea’s previously mentioned awesome pdf.
But a quick idea might well be to borrow from the Savage Tide example with regards weakening the BBEG. Set the BBEG at the theoretical limit of what the PCs could possible defeat (probably about an encounter level of +7 or thereabouts at the epic tier). But then allow the PCs to undertake various missions whereby success will either directly or indirectly weaken the BBEG (by temporarily reducing them by -1 Level per success). Of course success may not be guaranteed in these missions.
Another idea might be to never let the PCs level up until after the adventure. That would make something like E3: Prince of Undeath a decent challenge.
3. Thou shalt embrace Collateral Damage
In the Heroic tier a village might get burnt down by raiders.
In the Paragon tier a town might get razed to the ground by an army.
In the Epic tier deities could be responsible for cities, getting magically ‘nuked’, countries wiped off the map overnight, empires destroyed, reshaping of the continents, pandemics, ice ages, asteroid impacts, planetary axis shifts, world wars and every other doomsday scenario you can imagine.
Problem
Many DMs don’t like to destroy large swathes of the campaign world. Maybe they have put too much work into designing areas and NPCs that the thought of destroying them is too much to bear.
If you cannot bear the thought of your lovely campaign world getting FUBAR’ed then simply don’t play an epic campaign because you will be depriving the game of one of the fundamental cornerstones of epicness: the ramifications upon the setting, the overturning of the status quo, the ushering in of new era’s and epochs. One thing that makes epic games stand out is the ability for the PCs actions and inactions to shape the world around them.
Solution
So don’t shy away from big things happening to the campaign world, embrace it.
Of course you then have to make those big things happen in the first place and there are not really any great rules for that at the moment. Rituals could cover it but then how do you balance them, how can you create something like the Rain of Colourless Fire or the Invoked Devastation (from Oeridian history) or the Mythal from the Forgotten Realms past. Thats something beyond the scope of this article to cover, I’ll explore further in the Immortals Handbook and hopefully future articles here on this website.
However, as a quick rule of thumb (and this is currently untested) it might be possible to introduce Ritual Templates that increase the scale of a spell or ritual’s effect. For instance you could apply the Country Scale Template to the Animate Dead ritual and animate all corpses in the entire country, creating an army of undead.
4. Thou shalt include Contrasting Cut Scenes
In the Epic tier the heroes try to save the world from the grip of Orcus’ terrible ritual animating all the dead in the world.
…at the same time…in the Paragon tier the henchmen of the heroes defend the castle from being attacked by a Dracolich.
…while thats going on…in the Heroic tier, NPCs (e.g. Karl the Blacksmith or the Landlord of the Rosy Dog Tavern) the heroes met early in their careers are defending their homes against a seemingly endless horde of zombies.
Cut scenes, as an idea, would work with any tier of play. The specific goal here though, is to illustrate the fundamental differences between the mundane and the epic, by specifically having cut scenes designed for different tiers.
Problem
When everything is BIG, BIGGER, BIGGEST! Then its easy to lose track of just how momentous the events have just become. When all around you the dials have been turned up to eleven its easy for the EPIC to become the norm, which means that too much epic becomes mundane, which is why you need a little contrast, every now and again.
Solution
So what is ‘contrast’ in this context? Basically you need to give your PCs a reminder every now and again of just how far removed the epic is from the mundane, by making them play the lower levels again. However, packing up the epic game would be self-defeating (since we want to run a cool epic campaign). So you have to weave this scene jump into the epic campaign storyline.
The easy way to do this is by having the PCs play as either their henchmen (or some other servants) or even better, as their worshippers. However, this isn’t the only way to achieve this: perhaps the PCs have been weakened by some epic ritual, or perhaps the bad guy has went back in time and the PCs have to defeat him as they were back then when they were less powerful.
The point is, occasionally you want PCs to get a taste of how things were in the lower tiers of play and the best way to approach this is by tying it into the current story. This not only has the benefit of making the epic bits seem bigger, but it also keeps the PCs guessing whats going to happen next and even allows you to juggle multiple plots at the same time.
In the movies and television they do this all the time, for instance in Return of the Jedi you have Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Vader. Then the scene changes to show Han Solo lead the Rebels on Endor to destroy the shield generator. Then the scene jumps again to show Lando in the Millenium Falcon in a big space battle. Back and forth the scene changes heightening the tension.
In the same way when your epic PCs are taking on Orcus in his throne room, perhaps the world is being overrun with undead and the PCs henchmen back home are fighting a losing battle against hopeless odds. When the PCs get Orcus bloodied, change the scene to show the henchmen battling against the undead swarming over the castle and then have the PCs play as their own henchmen in that scene, end the encounter with something even worse coming for them (a Dracolich maybe) and then cut back to the PCs. If they don’t finish Orcus off soon everyone back home is done for.
5. Thou shalt Explore the Unexplored
In the Heroic tier, characters don’t stray too far from home; the civilised areas with maybe some danger lurking at locations on the fringes of society.
In the Paragon tier, the heroes travel to the most dangerous and remote parts of their world; places where even the environments themselves are hostile (the underdark, frozen wastelands, deserts, volcanic regions, underwater cities etc.).
In the Epic tier players get to visit the planes: the vibrant explosion of life that is the Feywild, the enervating dismal ruins of the Shadowfell, the Astral Plane – palaces and graveyards of the gods, the Elemental Chaos the unbridled fury of the elements unchecked and the twisted madness of the Far Realm.
Problem
Now while you can probably visit the planes at the Paragon or even Heroic tiers, to do so somewhat cheapens the planes in my opinion, removing the impact of these wondrous places. I know some of you probably played Planescape back in 2nd Edition and explored the planes with relative impunity at 1st-level. Well basically I am here to tell you that Planescape got it all wrong. Its ‘comfy slippers’ approach let you not only traverse the planes at 1st-level, but you could actually live there amongst the demons, devils and deities. But when demons and gods are commonplace, what do you do and where do you go for an encore? While the idea behind Planescape was a good marketing ploy (lets get to the kewl stuff immediately) to sell a multitude of boxed sets, it was a flawed idea as regards selling Dungeons and Dragons as a whole. The game should embrace the contrasts each tier brings, not seek to blend everything into one homogenized soup.
Solution
So the suggestion here is don’t be too quick to rush players into the planes at the lower tiers, keep something unique for each tier of play, making it stand out more.
In the Immortal tier…well you’ll just have to wait and see, won’t you. 😉
6. Thou shalt eradicate the idea of Fixed Level Encounters
Technically this commandment works well at any tier of play, but its probably more important for the higher tiers were challenging the PCs becomes increasingly difficult.
Problem
The game sacrifices too much verisimilitude to throw fixed level encounters at the PCs in easy to handle portions. What this does is act as a security blanket to PCs who know that they should be able to beat any given encounter the DM throws at them, so they can just run amok in Orcus’ backyard with impunity, lets go there, lets take a rest here. Retreat is no longer an option simply because its no longer necessary for PCs to flee the field.
Solution
You need to mechanically remove the security blanket of fixed level encounters.
Firstly, design defended areas attacked/infiltrated by the PCs as if they are a legitimate military base. Instigate a ‘realm wide’ Defcon level for enemy territories.
- Defcon 5: Normal Readiness
- Defcon 4: Possible Threat Detected, increase all Encounters by +1, send a patrol to investigate the disturbance
- Defcon 3: Definite Threat Detected, increase all Encounters by +2, activate security protocols in that area (special traps/hazards), send elite guard units to mop up survivors
- Defcon 2: Security Compromised, increase all Encounters by +3, we’re gonna need the A-team on this one
- Defcon 1: Gentlemen we are under attack, increase all encounters by +4, get Orcus on the crystal ball, he’s going to want to handle this himself
This way, the actions of the PCs have consequences. The PCs trigger the higher alert status by getting involved in fights (encounters) and allowing the alarm to be raised. Every major area will have three grades of response team:
- Standard Guard Patrol = Encounter Level about the same as the PCs
- Elite Heavy Guard Patrol (by ‘Elite’ I don’t mean necessarily Elite rank – just to clarify) = Encounter Level +1 to +3
- Special Forces Strike Team (named NPCs, or unique monsters) = Encounter Level +4 to +6
7. Thou shalt have Monsters Much Bigger Than Gargantuan
In the heroic tier you face ogres twice the height of a normal man.
In the paragon tier the heroes battle dragons as big as a house.
In the epic tier you can face monsters about 10 feet taller than the paragon tier…I mean, really? Whats epic about that?
Problem
Forget what the official books say, I’m here to tell you that (Ancient) Dragons are not proper Epic Tier opponents, that even the Tarrasque is not an Epic Tier monster…yes you heard me THE TARRASQUE IS NOT AN EPIC TIER MONSTER!! They should all be Paragon Tier…of course its too late for me to rewrite all the 4E monster books, but its important to understand why I am making such a claim in the first place. A monster, in particular a solo monster (with no army to back it up) should be a threat (roughly) as follows:
- Levels 1-5 = Village Threat
- Levels 6-10 = Town Threat
- Levels 11-15 = City Threat
- Levels 16-20 = Country Threat
- Levels 21-25 = Continental Threat
- Levels 26-30 = World Threat
Now an ancient dragon is certainly a threat to a city and probably just about a threat to a country. The Tarrasque is probably a good threat for a small country. Now you can argue that “Hey the ancient red dragon and the Tarrasque are Level 30 so they must be epic threats Krusty”. But why are they Level 30, and what does Level 30 itself mean? If the epic tier is about saving the world, then epic tier monsters should be capable of placing that world in jeopardy, not just mathematically placed at that level to challenge heroes of that level. A dragon’s fiery breath might burn down a few buildings, the Tarrasque might eat a few hundred people while the rest scatter and hide but so might a large roving warband of orcs. The epic tier should be about taking on a dragonflight of thousands of dragons, or battling intelligent Tarrasque armed with futuristic weaponry (like Ma-Yuan the godslayer).
Instead what we have is a plethora of monsters who are epic simply because the rules say they are supposed to be epic, rather than epic because of their innate power and ability.
Of course you can have solo monsters who are the leaders of vast armies (like Demon Princes and Deities) who may not necessarily need to have personal power capable of destroying a world because they can threaten it with their armies. But even these mighty beings should have some indirect way of threatening the planet, perhaps Orcus can perform ancient rituals that cause all the dead to rise up on a planet and attack the living?
Solution
But the point is you need to massively up the scale of the monsters in the epic tier, and I have just the set of tools for the job, called Super-Solo Monsters, a set of quick and simple rules for creating truly enormous boss monsters OF ANY SIZE. I’ll have those rules on this website hopefully before the end of May.
How big can the monsters get? There is no limit, but check out this fun clip from a video game in the works called Asura’s Wrath. Now that’s EPIC…and something I’d expect to see PCs battling about Level 29-30. 😉
In the Epic tier you can battle golems the size of castles, primordials the size of mountains and dragons as big as planets…that sounds slightly more epic to me than monsters a few feet taller than the last tier.
In the Immortal tier…don’t even get me started…just go watch Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann and get that Armour ready. 😀
8. Thou shalt embrace Politics
In the Heroic tier you battle monsters and gain treasure.
In the Paragon tier you battle different monsters and gain more treasure.
In the Epic tier you do battle with really powerful monsters and gain vast treasures worth a king’s ransom.
Problem
Okay the above is a simplification of the game itself and a generalisation that most campaigns fall into a rut of killing things and taking their stuff (which I know isn’t the case for every campaign, so I apologise to those people). But its worth pointing out that gaming at each tier means more or less the exact same thing, only the monsters are more powerful and the treasure is amplified.
Solution
The solution to this problem is to introduce politics. Now I fully admit to being a predominantly tactical gamer (thats the side of things I enjoy most). But in our epic campaign there was a lot of politics and I have to admit, I loved it. Some problems you just can solve with your fists (or swords) and for everything else there’s politics.
I am sure there is probably better advice than I could muster on how to introduce a political element to Dungeons and Dragons. But I think the first step is to allow PCs to run their own stronghold (sometime during the Paragon Tier). This was something the game always advocated back in Oth/1st Edition but it seems to have been largely ignored by recent designers which is a great shame.
9. With great power comes great Responsibility*
*Yes I know you used that quote last week S’mon and I passed the XP points on to Stan Lee. :-p
In the Heroic tier you are relatively unknown and few have heard of your deeds.
In the Paragon tier you are respected (or feared – for villainous types) at a national level, when the king requires champions your name is one of those spoken.
In the Epic tier you are a superstar, adored (or despised – for villainous types) across the known world.
Problem
If the PC’s just exist in a vacuum where their actions or inactions simply have no consequences beyond their character sheets then you are missing probably the epic game’s greatest USP (Unique Selling Point) – the vast gravitas of events. But for that self same gravitas to impact the players they have to care what happens to NPCs.
Now its possible that some players may care about the fate of NPC henchmen or long time allies…but lets be honest, most won’t.
Solution
So how do you get players to care what happens to the millions of people Orcus just killed? Simple…you make PC’s power directly dependent upon ‘the little people’ by replacing experience points with worship points.
I introduced this idea back in 3rd Edition with the Immortals Handbook: Ascension. In that book the more worshippers you garnered, the greater your divine rank (which back then was a template). The key aspect of this approach is that the number of worshippers could go up or down depending upon the success or failure of certain events. The beauty of this mechanic is that the DM can then challenge the PCs indirectly with attacks upon their worshippers. Trust me, when power is directly linked to worshippers, the players WILL care about the well-being of the little people.
Now the Immortals Handbook: Ascension book wasn’t fantastic by my own admission (you can read my thoughts on that here). But I now understand all its flaws and I will be starting a 4th Edition version of those ideas in a few months time. One of the pitfalls of Ascension 3E was that I didn’t make the worship angle central enough, which meant most people didn’t bother with it (and maybe it wasn’t well enough explained to begin with). In the days of 1st/2nd Edition we used a similar method but the lesson I forgot was that beyond a certain point (roughly 16-20th-level depending on class) PC levels were almost meaningless in 1st/2nd Edition. This meant that worshippers were far more important than XP in terms of powering up a character. Yes they were more trouble to gain and maintain but the benefits were ultimately worth it. But I think in 3E it was not worth the bother when you could just use one of the other paths (Power or Resonance rather than Glory) to gain divinity and so most people did just that and ignored the worship feature which is (IMO) the most important feature to have in an epic/immortal game. Added to which character levelling in 3E still meant a hefty increase in power.
In the 4th Edition Immortals Handbook I am leaning towards the idea of integrating the Worship Points rules at Level 21 with a probable suggestion that campaigns abandon the EXP rules (for leveling at least) altogether. But thats still work in progress so its not set in stone.
A word regarding Commandments #8 and #9…
To put these paradigm shifts into the context of the different tiers:
- Heroic Tier: Adventuring
- Paragon Tier: Adventuring + Politics (National level: Running your own Stronghold)
- Epic Tier: Adventuring + Politics (Global Level: Running your own Country/Empire) + Worship (Pre-Divine Ascension)
- Immortal Tier: Adventuring + Politics (Planar Level: Running your own Religion) + Worship (Post-Divine Ascension) + Realm/Plane Building
10. Thy Weapons shalt be outrageous
In the Heroic tier you use the best weapons you can find.
In the Paragon tier you are equipped with the best magic weapons money can buy.
In the Epic Tier, destiny draws you to artifacts of power fated to become your legendary signature weapon (or weapons).
Problem
There is no problem as such here, consider this a style thing: “Epic eye for the mundane guy” or something like that.
Solution
Its an unwritten law of epic…probably. Either in terms of design (e.g. your sword has three blades and they shoot out), function (e.g. when you throw the weapon it comes back you you) or scale (e.g. that sword is WAY too big for a normal person to wield), epic weapons simply need to be improbably outrageous.
Examples of Epic weapons include:
- The Glaive from the Krull movie
- The Gunswords from Final Fantasy VIII
- Thor’s hammer
- The sword from the movie “The Sword and the Sorceror”
- Lightsabres
- Kratos’ Blades of Chaos from the God of War videogame
- The Flying Guillotine from movies such as One-Armed Boxer II
- The Sword of the Moon and the Spear of the Sun in Slaine.
My ultimate plan is to have new races in the Immortals Handbook (both Epic tier and Immortal tier) and each of these races will have its own signature weapon type. For instance the Sirian race from the Far Realm will wield crystalline items and weapons made from Ioun Stones, while the Devoids from the Dimension of Death will have items and weapons made from Liches.
Final Thoughts
I hope you enjoyed the article and get to ask yourself how many of the above boxes does your own epic campaign tick. If you have any feedback at all feel free to post those comments below.
Eternity Publishing 
Dave
April 16, 2011
Wow, this looks great. Unfortunately I have a party to host, so i will look at it in more depth tomorrow.
S'mon
April 16, 2011
Very nice article Krusty! A bit longer & you could make it a pdf and charge for it. 🙂
For really big mass battles, IMO nothing will ever beat the BECMI Companion Set ‘War Machine’, it’s superbly simple and elegant. I intend to use it once any of my 4e campaigns get up high enough to have PCs commanding armies. It allows for PC heroic feats to easily change the course of a battle, even with hundreds of thousands on the field.
Obviously as your DM I agree about politics, even a little adds a huge amount to the feel of a campaign.
You make interesting points about my (>:)) Worship Points system, and the issues you had implementing it in 3e. I’d suggest sticking with 4e XP rules as normal to 30th, so that you’re not changing the standard game, but then make advancement beyond 30th entirely WP dependent, and WPs already accumulated in the Epic Tier will come in handy.
One query I have – obviously the Demigod Epic Destiny works great with this, but a lot of Destinies don’t; some have fates like “You merge with the cosmos” or “You die” (qv Legendary Sovereign). How do you address this?
S'mon
April 17, 2011
I discuss the article and my thoughts & ideas further here:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5531312
S'mon
April 17, 2011
Corrected link:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/304627-interesting-article-epic-divine-play.html#post5531630
Upper_Krust
April 17, 2011
Hey guys,
working the past few nights and again tonight so time is at a premium for a day or two. I only sped read through the article before posting it so there may be some mistakes and maybe a few topics could use a little expanding.
@Simon
I’m planning to have a really quick battle system for the Serpent Riders adventure module based around the UNIT rules I briefly mentioned above. I think 4E is so flexible that these rules work well. I was contemplating how I would run 300 Spartans against the Persian Army and it looks fairly simple.
I just loved the politics aspect of our game, which I think gives a good contrast itself to combat.
Well yes it WAS your worship points system but the Event rules I created give DMs a mechanical basis for assigning WP – as opposed to just winging it. 😉
I am still pondering the idea that Worship Points should be integrated from Level 21 rather than 31 (or at least suggested as an optional method of advancement at 21). Part of the problem with 4E (based on the E series modules) is that advancement is so quick you can easily grind for a bit and come back too powerful for the BBEG. Whereas if you remember our game where after Level 16-20, Orcus was still a relative threat whether we were Level 21 or Level 117. I mean thats a slight exaggeration but certainly the difference between 10-20 levels was minimal, whereas the difference in 2-3 levels in 4E is potentially huge.
As regards epic destinies, arguably you could probably tie them in to immortal portfolios. But its something I need to look at further at specific cases.
Thanks for starting the thread about this – I was planning on doing so myself, I just didn’t have the time last night. Of course I would have gone with the catchier thread title (same as the article) but then I suppose you’re a lawyer not a marketing consultant. I’m pretty busy over the next 48 hours but I’ll try and respond a bit later. I like how you got XP for posting a link to my article. 😀
S'mon
April 17, 2011
“Well yes it WAS your worship points system but the Event rules I created give DMs a mechanical basis for assigning WP – as opposed to just winging it”
Well as you know, different grades of faith generated different amounts of WP. GM’s judgement was involved I guess in deciding what proportion of a population gained what amount of faith.
“Part of the problem with 4E (based on the E series modules) is that advancement is so quick you can easily grind for a bit and come back too powerful for the BBEG”
I don’t think it’s an inherent problem in the 4e XP system, I think that’s a problem with the WoTC module design, which is always aimed at pushing PCs up levels as quickly as possible through encounter after encounter. Outside the published modules it’s largely up to the DM whether balanced encounters are even available, IMO at Epic level it should rarely even be possible to just go down the local dungeon and grind away, because threats that can challenge but not overwhelm the PCs should be rare.
Upper_Krust
April 18, 2011
Hey Simon,
as regards 4E XP, I agree with you about the WotC module design. But I don’t fully understand what you are proposing as a fix at epic levels?
1. You need to challenge the PCs to make it worthwhile.
2. You need monsters/npcs powerful enough to challenge the PCs.
3. PCs will gain XP from defeating those opponents.
Surely the rarity is immaterial when the PCs can simply ‘seek out’ such threats?
Dave
April 18, 2011
UK:
nice article,I really enjoyed it. When I get a chance I will comment on each Commandment, but for now, just a general impression.
I like all of these ideas, and I think “Epic” campaigns should mark a definite change in game play, which the current Epic Tier does not (or not enough). But if some of these type of changes should be occuring at lvl 30+ and not lvl 20+. A new Tier (or Tiers) of play instead of completely reimagining Epic Tier. That is my first instinct at least.
I just can’t wrap my head around a lvl 30 PC taking on a flight of dragons! It seems to me that you would need something more.
Upper_Krust
April 19, 2011
Hi Dave,
I think part of the general misconception about the epic tier is because of the way WotC set it up. Instead of creating a wholly new tier of monsters, they basically just stretched the Paragon Tier, then drip fed in a few of the Epic Level Handbook monsters.
The Balor: Prior to 4E was NEVER an epic tier threat.
1E: 8+8 HD
2E: 13 HD
3E: 20 HD
4E: Level 27 Elite
Same thing with most of the demons and devils.
The Red Dragon Great Wyrm was CR 26 in 3E. Now the Ancient Red Dragon is a Level 30 Solo. So dragons are getting stretched.
So there is a lot of monster inflation going on.
The Epic Tier should not be about conventional fantasy monsters. The Level 30 monsters at the moment should be the Level 20 monsters in my opinion.
If I was doing it all again I would move the current Paragon Tier monsters to between 11-15 and most of the current epic monsters to between 16-20.
Keep levels 21-30 for the unconventional or unique monsters: Abominations, Dukes and Archdukes of Hell, Demon Lords and Princes, Apocalypse Spells, Forsaken, Star-spawn, Weavers, Primordials, Deities and so forth.
Instead they have basically diluted the epic tier with the likes of Yuan-ti and Drow. Not that I am saying those races couldn’t have epic examples, but they would be unique characters, not rank and file grunts.
So to answer your question, I can understand your bewilderment at the idea of epic characters battling hundreds of dragons because official 4E epic is geared completely against it…and thats why its not very epic. By having conventional monsters spread throughout the epic tier you once again paint the picture that its nothing special.
Dave
April 19, 2011
UK:
I completely understand and agree with your analysis and I hadn’t even thought to review how the “Epic” monsters were potrated in previous editions. However, I guess I am wondering if it is better to go along with WotC and add a new Tier (Immortal Tier in your case) which would be the “real” epic tier or to recreate the current Epic Tier into something that is truely epic.
For me, I think it is better to add on and treat the current “Epic Tier” as paragon+.
Upper_Krust
April 19, 2011
Hi Dave,
that was my initial thinking as well (to just add new tiers), but the more I think about it, the more I get the impression that if I don’t fix the epic tier first that no one will want to play through it to get to the Immortal Tier. 😀
So I think part of my goal now is to also rejuvenate epic tier play, which at the moment just doesn’t seem epic at all.
Dave
April 20, 2011
HI UK,
That makes a lot of sense. 30 levels of the same stuff might get to be a drag and keep people from moving forward. There is also a nice symmetry 1-20 and then 21-40 (I assume).
Dave
April 20, 2011
UK:
I am preparing a lenght comment response to this article and I was just wondering if you would prefer that I respond on your blog or at the ENWorld thread Simon linked?
Upper_Krust
April 20, 2011
Hi Dave,
If its a long post I suppose forums are better than here for going point to point. Technically there are currently four places of discussion (or here, and three others):
ENWorld General Discussion (started by Simon):
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/304627-interesting-article-epic-divine-play.html
ENWorld 4th Edition Discussion:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/304659-ten-commandments-epic-gaming.html
RPGNet d20 Forum Discussion:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?571946-The-Ten-Commandments-of-Epic-Gaming
Any of the above are fine by me.
omeganian
April 22, 2011
Now, how would I adjust the Muhlatim to be of proper size?
Upper_Krust
April 22, 2011
Hey there Omeganian matey! 🙂
You’ll just have to wait for the article. 😉
Technically, using the new Super-size rules, even larger than Universe sized beings are possible and more importantly, playable. Although for my examples I’ll stick with Castle sized and Mountain sized.
As regards Dragons themselves:
Epic (which we’ll probably need to rename) = Mega-size
Cosmic = Giga-size
Eschatolic = Planetary Size
etc.
Of course that raises an issue I have with Dragons in general (that I raise in the article) basically that the Monster Manual Dragons are not epic tier foes at all and should probably be something like…
Young = 1-5
Adult = 6-10
Elder = 11-15
Ancient = 16-20
White = 1, 6, 11, 16
Black = 2, 7, 12, 17
Green = 3, 8, 13, 18
Blue = 4, 9, 14, 19
Red = 5, 10, 15, 20
What that means of course is that there could be a slight disparity between my suggested epic dragons and the Monster Manual dragons. I might have Ancient Epic Dragons in the epic tier, lower level than Ancient Red Dragons (for example) but technically more powerful (because they are super-solos).
omeganian
April 23, 2011
At first, you think it is a small star in front of you. But as your spaceship approaches, you can see it is a curled up dragon of enormous proportions. Yet despite its size, you know it can see you. It doesn’t seem to move, yet wherever you go, you are always in front of it. You see it has only one head, yet you can feel there are a thousand heads both in front and behind you, all watching. And in its glowing, yet not blinding eyes, you can see yourself as a king, a great mage, and see what great destiny you can have.
You look the other way, and you see a black shadow eclipsing the stars. You have the same impression looking upon it, except much more sinister. And then, its black eyes are fixed upon you. You see yourself a slave. You see yourself tortured. You see your doom.
The light dragon has vanished somewehere. But the black one is now in front of you. And, with horror, you realize it’s not a dragon. It is but a dragon’s claw. Or, perhaps, that bigger dragon is a claw of something bigger. Your horror overwhelms you as you realize that this can continue… and the dragon can unfold… until finally, it can grip an entire universe in its jaws, crack it, chew it into dust, and consume it without trace.
Horrified, you give orders. All over your starship, planet cracking guns are charging, ready to fire at the creature. And, as it appraises you, it doesn’t grow. Rather, it folds smaller and smaller. First as small as a planet, then an asteroid, then a human, then a fly… until finally, it is barely large enough for your sensors to detect.
And you realize that’s a way for the dragon to show how far you are beneath it.
And that it is now going to breathe at you…
The Id DM
April 23, 2011
Excellent information!
I’ll have to bookmark this for when my party reaches Epic Tier in about a year or so. 🙂
d20sforlife
April 25, 2011
Thought on epic tier weapons:
Ask the player what the biggest, baddest weapon his PC could wield is, and then give to a BBEG or solo monster. Make ’em earn that bad boy. Makes ownership of the weapon much more than a uber boom-stick, but a trophy.
Dave
April 25, 2011
d20sforlife:
That is actually a good idea at any Tier, but I can see how it would make Epic more interesting if you didn’t do it normally.
Upper_Krust
April 26, 2011
@omeganian – I’m half considering lowering the tier of the black hole dragon (to Cosmic) and raising the Void Dragon (to Eschatolic).
@The Id DM – glad you liked the article. 🙂
@d20sforlife – that makes a change from just giving the bad guy an ‘evil’ weapon…although instead of a helm of opposite alignment you could always have a scabbard of opposite alignment which might reverse an evil sword into a good one.
eduar
April 26, 2011
this is great
strongly agree, unfortunately we only use 2 or 3 of these points, I hope to apply more
Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is a great anime, one of the best for me
and now I want Ashura’s wrath
omeganian
April 27, 2011
Here is a minor adjustment of the Muhlatimic Dragons… Dunno if it’s any good, but I felt I have to write it down
At first, you think it is a huge star in front of you. But as your spaceship approaches, you can see it is a curled up dragon of enormous proportions. Yet despite its size, you know it can see you. It doesn’t seem to move, yet wherever you go, you are always in front of it. You see it has only one head, yet you can feel there are a thousand heads both in front and behind you, all watching. And in its glowing, yet not blinding eyes, you can see yourself as a king, a great mage, and see what great destiny you can have.
You look the other way, and you see a black shadow eclipsing the stars. You have the same impression looking upon it, except much more sinister. And then, its black eyes are fixed upon you. You see yourself a slave. You see yourself tortured. You see your doom.
The light dragon has vanished somewhere. But the black one is now in front of you. And, with horror, you realize it’s not a dragon. It is but a dragon’s claw. Or, perhaps, that bigger dragon is a claw of something bigger. Your horror overwhelms you as you realize that this can continue… and the dragon can unfold… until finally, it can grip an entire universe in its jaws, crack it, chew it into dust, and consume it without a trace.
Horrified, you give orders. All over your starship, planet cracking guns are charging, ready to fire at the creature. And, as it appraises you, it doesn’t grow. Rather, it folds smaller and smaller. First as small as a planet, then an asteroid, then a human, then a fly… until finally, it is barely large enough for your sensors to detect.
And you realize that’s a way for the dragon to show how far you are beneath it.
And that it is now going to breathe at you…
They say that a once, the sages of Greece were asked “What is stronger than all?” Translation varies on their answer. Necessity. Fate. Inevitability. Whatever you take, however, this is but another name for the Akashic records. And for the records to be updated, no single point of view, all encompassing as it is, can be enough. The Records do not depend solely on the Supreme Being. No, rather, they also have their own nerve endings. Not only that, those are also whips and cuffs, a police for unruly Eternals. The Uncreated. The Ultimates. The Muhlatim. Or, as those few aware of them dare to call them, the Muhlatimic Dragons. Of them, only one kind is known, and this has two forms, Destiny and Doom.
The Dragons’ life cycle is long. While drawing their power directly from the Records, they need a spark to create a new life, and a spark for it to grow. The mating normally occurs in the vicinity of a supernova (for Destiny) or stars being devoured by black holes (for Doom). In both cases, the moments have to be precisely chosen and are extremely rare, never occurring more than once in a universe’s lifetime – and not nearly every universe.
Only one egg (unusually small, compared to the parents) is normally laid. The egg is planet sized (Mega-G), and orbits a star. The outer surface of a shell has the composition of normal rock, but hardens with depth, until about 100 miles below, it is strong enough to smother even the largest cosmic collisions. The parents, however, are overprotective of their babies, and may decide to destroy every other body in the stellar system just in case. They may spare, however, smaller inconveniences like local and visiting life forms and civilizations upon the egg, although, as is their universal function, they will take the utmost care to study them (and may decide to hold their technological level below the nuclear age). When the time comes for the egg to hatch (5 billion years in average), however, they literally sweep the system clean of every dust speck. The inhabitants (if the dragon is in a good enough mood) are warned and given time to evacuate. In case of a dragon in a bad mood, even the most harmless races are eradicated (If you want to argue that this is paranoia, argue with the dragon – I have no intention to).
Upon hatching, the first cry of the baby is strong enough to destabilize the star. After a few days , the star is in a state fit for the baby to consume all its energy and matter (an opportunity it gladly uses, and which takes about a century.) Then, it consumes the eggshell. After that, no further nourishment is needed.
Note; sometimes pieces of shell are left behind. While no one knows exactly what the inner parts are initially composed of, after the baby leaves, they are found to contain two substances; neutronium and reverse neutronium. The latter has similar properties to neutronium; however, it has negative mass, so weapons fashioned from it suffer damage penalty, while armor gives increased DR and has a chance of disarming the opponent. Not even force effects can penetrate it fully, since the energy inside them inevitably has enough mass to be repelled. Nearly forgotten myths exist about great artifacts made from a fresh eggshell, stories which defy belief.
It is said that many years ago, a pantheon of a planet received a singly tiny speck of fresh eggshell (some insist it was a piece of the dragon’s scale). Given to the smith of the pantheon, he worked for years, trying to use it. In the end, when it was already decaying, he cast it into molten metal. The explosion which resulted killed the smith and all around. Out of the remains, seven great weapons arose.
All seven still exist. It is believed that Alabaster’s Were-Sword (and maybe a few more f his weapons) are from that batch.
When the wyrmling leaves the system, it looks about three times the size of a normal star. An ancient may stretch as large as a star system . Don’t let the small size deceive you, however. The body visible is merely an extension, a projection of the true Uncreated. It serves as a limb, a nerve… and, as you already noticed it fulfills the function of a certain other part of the dragon’s anatomy The true form exists in the indescribable spaces between the universes. Even the smallest wyrmling’s true size exceeds large galaxies. As for the upper limit… nobody knows, but frightened whispers among Eternals speak of dragons munching on hordes of revolting universes like a bag of small candy.
Combat:
The Muhlatim will seldom enter a battle. Never will they enter before watching it first, except for the direst need. When they do – adaptive doesn’t begin to describe them.
Abilities:
Akashic connection. Due to its connection to the Records, the dragon can erase all immunities the enemy has acquired against it, including those from Omnific abilities.
Isotropic. Every direction is in front of the dragon. Its beam attacks are affecting everyone. Its breath is a sphere around it. Naturally, it cannot be nor flanked nor sneaked upon. Nor it is subject to critical hits even from the most powerful of creatures.
Aura. The aura of the Ultimate shows every person their destiny. In case of a Destiny Dragon, it shows each person their greatness should they follow the Dragon’s path, and makes them loyal servants. It also provides bonuses for the allies (should the dragon decide them useful for this battle). A Doom Dragon makes the enemies flee, cower, go mad, or even drop dead on the spot. This aura also counters certain abilities like Omnipresence, for only one true power can exist inside it.
Cosmopolite. The dragon belongs to no universe. Trancscorporeality is always ignored by it.
Covertness. In order to follow their duties better, when not in combat the dragons have incorporeity and invisibility which even work against most Omnific abilities.
Breath.
The Ultimate breath is like a prismatic spray. No, it is nothing like a prismatic spray. But it does have seven effects:
1) Disintegration. Fortitude. Those who fail are ripped into atoms on the spot. The enemy is treated as erased from reality forever. Success means a massive amount of permanent damage.
2) Mental disintegration. Will. The enemies’ souls are likewise shredded. Forever lost, but if the body is intact it is controllable by the dragon. Success means a penalty to mental abilities.
3) Shifting. Will. Failure means that the victim is shifted into another reality. Success means a hostile analogue (relative CL may depend on age category) from another reality can be brought forth (it is entitled to its own save on the other side)
4) Teleportation. Reflex. The victim is transported into a random place, most likely an extremely hostile one. This does not affect the victim, but its surroundings, so even in success, he is affected by the surroundings. The surroundings can be different, they say that some of the oldest ones are capable of opening a rift to the horrifying depths between the realities, erasing them forever (Translation; the mother of the host kicks a player out of the house).
5) Conversion. The dragon stops the enemy at the most subtle level. Its will to fight. The enemy is forever incapable of combat. In case of a Doom Dragon, the enemy may lose the will to live as well, and will likely commit suicide (quintessence dispersed completely).
6) Divine restraint. The enemy loses a certain percentage of its quintessence, with all entailing.
7) It is not always subtlety which works. Sometimes, brute force is best. A massive blast of energy affects the victim. Treat as anti matter blast of damage depending on age. If somehow the enemy has resistance to this effect, the dragon may shift to another damage type, and it is always aware of the enemy’s resistance.
A wyrmling can use any one effect. As it grows older, more and more can be used at once. The breath can be shaped into any form, sparing allies, even ones grappling with an enemy.
Adventure ideas:
1) An egg is about to hatch. A death cult is trying to provoke the parents into destroying the inhabitants without warning.
2) Alabaster seeks to collect all the Seven Weapons. He believes that with them, he can somehow create a true Shell Artifact.
3) A power hungry Eternal tries to create the conditions for both the Destiny and Doom dragon mating at the same time and place. He believes that should a Doom Dragon mate with a Destiny Dragon inside his universe, he will be able to use the paradox in order to create a new reality, with complete Akashic records, and himself as the irremovable Supreme Being. It doesn’t matter that the current reality has a good chance of being destroyed in the process…
4) A long time ago, a horde of Eternals tried to revolt against the Supreme Being. Instead of him dealing with them, a great Doom Wyrm was sent. After a short debate attempt, it simply consumed all their universes. The Eternals were destroyed, yet somehow, the universes survived. An eternity later, these universes were… left in the dragon’s wake. Seemingly unchanged, but devoid of all life. Now, many years later, life has evolved there. But these are no mere mortals who inhabit these universes. The shadowy ichor of Doom flows in their veins.
Upper_Krust
April 27, 2011
Very cool Omeganian! 🙂
I think there exists the potential for five or six powers of dragon, each covering a 20* level span. With an overlap of 5.
*Normal Dragons cover a 30 level span in the Monster Manual, but they should really be reduced to a 20 level span.
Basic < 'Epic'* (16-30) < Cosmic (26-40) < Eschatolic (36-50) < Muhlatimic (46-60)
*I'd use the term planar but its already being used.
…I dunno, maybe that needs a bit more thought put into it.
Rian Q.
April 30, 2011
TTGL at immortal tier? By size alone of 10 million light years tall, and reading your 3.5 size chart and some Ascension data, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann would have… let me see
18,889,465,931,478,580,854,784 HD, be Yotta-Huge in size giving it ungodly penalties to attack and defense.
Have 4,722,366,482,869,645,213,696 points to spread out over its already-high stats.
If it’s classed as an Outsider due to its makeup, it would effectively have the Monad template assuming you don’t stack that mofo, a minimum of 7,555,786,372,591,432,341,912 on each stat, giving it a 3,777,893,186,295,716,170,951 bonus on stats alone.
Have 3,777,893,186,295,716,170,956 divine AC from HD
Enough slots to have every damn Omnific ability in the book and have enough left over to empty the homebrew feats and abilities of the entire internet.
And the kicker, assuming it has a con score and is not considered a construct but as an omnific deity…
At least 71,362,384,635,297,994,052,804,739,570,072,000,000,000,000,000,000 HP, rounded obviously because my calculator wont go that high.
PS, if nothing can exceed the speed of light, a battle involving TTGL with an equally-sized mecha would take millions of years to resolve a single turn, because of the mecha’s reach in melee being several million light years in range.
PPS: Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is so huge, TTGL could fit in its mouth, meaning that beast would likely be Xona-Diminutive.
I have far too much time on my hands!
omeganian
May 1, 2011
Well, then calculate the energy of sublight impacts of galaxies, and try to translate it to HP.
Rian Q.
May 1, 2011
Oh geez I’d have to know how many planets are in a galaxy, how many stars, how much orichalcum, how much neutronium… how much the planets weigh… oh geez I think throwing entire planets and galaxies through extreme abuse of the Hulkling Hurler rules would be the only way to fight something on that level.
Upper_Krust
May 1, 2011
Hey Rian Q,
I agree that above a certain point that 3rd Edition became far too unwieldy for truly massive beings.
However, 4th Edition, in tandem with my Super-solo Ruleset is perfect for running monsters of ANY size.
I expect that Planetary size monsters (like in the Asura’s Wrath clip) could be introduced as opponents for the Level 29-30 PCs.
I’d have to check my notes to see what sort of minimum level we could feature the TTGL but its probably Level 40 ish.
Omeganian
May 1, 2011
16 orders of magnitude of size, nearly 50 in volume difference… Translates into just ten levels???
Omeganian
May 1, 2011
Also, you wrote in this very article each factor of 10 is +6 levels. A galaxy is, first of all, a mob of 10^11 stars. What do you get, level 100?
Upper_Krust
May 1, 2011
Howdy Omeganian matey! 🙂
Firstly its worth reiterating that this is 4th Edition now. Not 3rd Edition. There is no standardized size formula in 4E. That said, I have created a few guidelines for it.
Secondly, the Mob rules are not the same as the size rules. A factor of 10 is not +6 levels by my 4E size rules. The factors themselves increase by an increased factor of 10 each rung on the ladder now.
x10 = Mega
x1000 = Giga (x100 greater than mega)
x1,000,000 = Tera (x1000 greater than giga)
etc.
Thirdly, I have not yet revealed the super-solo rules. So wait until you see them before judging things. Trust me when I say you can do justice to TTGL AND make it playable in 4E. 😉
Lastly I am very unimpressed with official Epic Tier content and I am trying to reinvigorate that Tier as much as I am concerned with the Immortal Tier. So to achieve that I have slightly dropped the minimum levels for Super-solos to 21 (from 26).
omeganian
May 1, 2011
No Macro?
Upper_Krust
May 1, 2011
No need for Macro now Omeganian. I’ll probably use the name for a race or something (which was my initial idea years ago)…They would be a world of Giga-sized beings and animals.
omeganian
May 2, 2011
TTGL in the Zetta range, Muhlatim up to Yotta… Xona is the Ultrals?
Omeganian
May 3, 2011
BTW, these mob rules? Are you saying a mob of 100 000 commoners can kill a planet sized creature? Our planet has killed more by accident. You should try some form of diminishing returns. After all, a mob never gets appropriate DR increases.
Upper_Krust
May 3, 2011
Hiya mate! 🙂
There is more chance of a Minion creature defeating a Solo Monster of the same level than a group of 100,000 commoners defeating a Planet sized Super-solo. 😉
I’ll try and have another Vampire Bestiary preview this weekend. I was planning on having the Psoglav monster as the preview…but the art for that monster is not yet completed. So I’ll figure out something else. 🙂
omeganian
May 4, 2011
What about a million commoners?
Upper_Krust
May 4, 2011
No, not even a million.
However, that said, I am contemplating a cap of 10,000 on Units since more than that and the surplus cannot attack normal sized targets.
omeganian
May 4, 2011
I think RL armies have a problem with fighting units above 50 000 or so. How about 10 = +5, 100 = +9, 1000 = +12, 10 000 = +14, 100 000 = +15?
Upper_Krust
May 4, 2011
I prefer 10 = +6, 100 = +12, 1000 = +18 and 10,000 = +24.
Remember that these are just standard monsters (assuming the base monster was a standard monster). A 10,000 Unit converted to a solo monster would be +15.
Upper_Krust
May 10, 2011
Just wanted to mention I have been sick with the cold these past 5 days (got a complete soaking caught out in a storm Thursday night) and still not over it, hence the lateness of an update. I’ll try and get the latest article (about Epic Dragons which has a preview of the Super-solo ruleset) finished within the next 24 hours (depending on how I feel). No need for any get well gestures, like I said its just an annoying cold and I’m sure I’ll shrug it off in a day or so. 😉
As regards the article itself I am pondering whether to include a Revised (mega-sized Tiamat) or an Epic (mega-sized) Red Dragon. Unlike the Monster Manual Orcus, Tiamat is actually a half decent designed creature, so a revision doesn’t have quite the same necessity.
Dave
May 10, 2011
I vote for both! But if I have to pick one, I would say Tiamat – there is always room for improvement (damage ).
Scryer's Eve
September 14, 2011
This, along with the Feeling Of Epic thread on TGDMB, ought be required reading for those into epic. 🙂
Upper_Krust
September 15, 2011
Howdy Scryer’s Eve,
Or maybe also those working at Wizards of the Coast. 😉
Anyway, glad you liked the article.
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February 19, 2019
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