The Orcus entry was updated on the 11th of March.
There have been two official takes on Orcus in 4th Edition (Monster Manual and E3: Prince of Undeath), but none of them created truly satisfying opponents. So I thought I would throw my proverbial hat into the ring and see what I could come up with. It was also an excuse to put my basic tips on solo monster design into action.
But all this begs the question, what is Orcus? Or to be more specific, what are the features and powers intrinsic to Orcus that we can use to create our version.
Orcus (1st Edition AD&D)
While I know he featured in earlier products, Orcus really came to prominence in the 1st Edition Monster Manual (which was actually the first ever D&D book I ever bought, back in 1984). He later returned in the Bloodstone series of Modules as the main antagonist (I love those adventures, not because they were great, far from it, just because they tried to cover the levels we were playing at). Early incarnations of Orcus were a bit low on hit points. I remember chatting to Gary Gygax about this and he remarked that at the time he was kicked out of TSR he was actually planning a book that revised all the Demon Lords, Archdukes and so forth giving them all d12’s for Hit Dice and max hit points per die. Sadly that book never came to fruition. Anyway, the key features of his 1st Edition incarnations are:
- Punch/Slap: Noted that even a slap from Orcus was incredibly powerful. With my Orcus starting with the Wand and the Sword, his Punch would probably never get used. To counter that my initial idea was to have the Orcusword start to ‘Dance’ when Orcus is Bloodied. That frees up his hand for a Punch, and he also gains a Slap attack as a Triggered Action. I left in the Punch, but didn’t see any great benefit to keeping the Slap, since his Tail attack did much the same thing only better.
- Wand of Death (aka. The Wand of Orcus): The classic instrument of death that killed those it touched…at least those below a certain measure of power. I knew I wanted to keep the fatality for the Final Word power, so I decided that the Wand itself would instead deal permanent damage AND have the ability to create/summon undead on a critical hit. I did like the idea of the Wand turning into a glowing green whip with a “Soul Stealer” ability to pull a target’s soul from their body (losing Encounter and Daily powers in the process), but it was dropped from the final cut.
- Tail Attack: Poison dealing attack that was fast. Making it an easy fit for a Triggered Action.
- Summon Undead: I folded this power into the Wand of Orcus, so that he summons an undead servant from tearing off part of the target’s soul when he crits with the Wand. One of the monsters from E3: Prince of Undeath seemed perfect for this role.
- Gate Demons: It was pure coincidence that my own illustration of Orcus, done back in 2006 for the Immortals Handbook: Ascension, had him creating these magical pits with wraith-like monsters emerging from them. With 4E now allowing undead demons, I was able to choose another monster from the Prince of Undeath adventure, this time a minion, that seemed to fit perfectly.
- The Orcusword: Definately the attack that gave me the most consternation (probably because its such an open book). I didn’t want to go with the lightning of the Balor’s sword (though I initially considered lightning + necrotic). I also had several ideas additional features of the sword: the ability to fight of its own accord and ‘dance’ when Orcus is bloodied and a “Crack of Doom” power that deals damage like a Wall attack but opens a great fiery chasm.
Orcus (2nd Edition D&D)
Orcus gets himself killed at the end of the Bloodstone series and the designers of 2nd Edition decided to let that death stand as edition canon. Of course then they decided to resurrect him from the dead in the Dead Gods supermodule. Initially he comes back and has access to magic called the Final Word which can even kill gods.
- Final Word: I decided that Orcus would still retain a fraction of this power. I made it a ranged attack (as opposed to Touch of Death) so that it also gives Orcus the ability to deal with troublesome enemies too cowardly to face him in melee.
Orcus (3rd Edition D&D)
Orcus became one of the central bad guys of D&D again though for some inexplicable reason he now has completely red skin (where previously he had pale white skin like a blood drained corpse) and is well toned (where before he was fat).
- Gore: The gore attack sort of made sense while he was only Large size, but at Gargantuan size its just impractical. Instead I replaced it with a stomp attack, so that he can still charge around the battlefield.
Orcus (4th Edition)
In a clever move, WotC made Orcus THE poster boy for D&D villainy, he’s a cool villain so why not. He now also doubled in height to gargantuan (which wasn’t as completely out of the blue as you might think since he was bigger (than his usual 15 feet) in the Throne of Bloodstone module when encountered on his home plane. Presumably this was done to make him seem more impressive when standing next to the ‘Balrog-ified’ Balor who was now also bigger than before. Orcus gained two new features in 4th Edition, his Aura of Death and a Necrotic Pulse. With several other features being folded into new or similar powers.
- Aura of Death: Kept this but massively upped the damage.
- Necrotic Pulse: I never really liked this power, far too vanilla. So it morphed into the “Howl of Anguish”, Triggered Action
- Shard of Evil: Too adventure specific. I decided not to feature this plot device.
So there you have the key elements of Orcus. Yes he did also have a bunch of spell-like abilities back in the day, yes he did get some unique spells (for his cult) back in the Book of Vile Darkness, as well as start wearing that cool looking golden gauntlet. But I was already up to my neck in powers so a lot of stuff had to get cut.
Orcus (Krust Edition)
I couldn’t resist not adding a few ideas of my own into the mix.
- Curse of Brittle Bones: Inspired by the Mighty Thor story where the Death Goddess Hela curses Thor. This also gave me a chance to introduce my new Fragile condition.
- Dark Prayer: Triggered Action (Encounter: Triggered when Orcus is reduced to 25% Hit Points), Orcus buries the Orcusword in the ground, descends on one knee and unleashes all his dark power in one necromantic ritual, A fortitude attack, where every enemy on the battlefield takes damage equal to their bloodied value, Half on a Miss. I’m wondering if anyone killed by the attack becomes one of the undead (same as those created by the Wand on a crit).
- Wing Block: Inspired by the cartoon Batfink. Basically a limited (2) use ‘get out of jail free card’ for Orcus. Allowing him to escape from especially damaging attacks.
- Wraith Armour: Okay, not that happy with how this turned out, but I just thought ‘stop stalling and get it out there’.
Here is a list of ideas for powers I dropped from the final version:
- Crack of Doom: Standard Action (Recharge 5 6), Orcus slashes his sword into the ground, causing the floor to explode (5d10 + 25; half on a miss) across a 4 wide; 30 long ‘wall’ that creates a zone lasting to the end of the encounter.
- Dance of Death: Triggered Action (Encounter: Triggered when Orcus is Bloodied), The Orcusword fights under its own power. It can move anywhere on the battlefield.
- Death From Above: Move Action (Recharge 5 6), Orcus takes to the skies (teleporting outside the ceiling if need be), then crashes back down to the ground creating a mighty shockwave. Close Burst 10; 5d10 + 25 Thunder damage and targets are knocked prone. Half damage on a miss.
- Slap: Triggered Action (At Will), Anyone attacking him gets a slap, 3d10 + 15 damage and the target is slid 10 squares.
- Soul Stealer: Standard Action (Recharge 5 6), The Wand becomes a glowing green whip, snaring the targets soul. Melee 10, 6d10 + 30 permanent damage and the target is unable to use Encounter or Daily powers (save ends).
…Last Word
I hope you enjoy my take on Orcus, either way let me know what you think. Yes, I know the write up is more spartan than I’d have in a publication, there probably are a few typos and I still believe he could be improved with a tweak here and there (not happy with stomp or wraith armour at the moment and the bonus feature of the Dark Prayer power suggested above could be cool), but its not a bad first attempt. So without further ado (and as ever, click on the pages for a larger version)…
Eternity Publishing 
Dave
March 9, 2011
UK:
I really like the history of the development of your Orcus, that is very helpful. I have to head off to a meeting, but I will be sure to give the big O a thorough review and comment when I get back.
beej!
March 9, 2011
Just like back in the 3.x days, no one quite does epic (immortal?) stats better than you, U_K.
*Making the Orcusword a basic attack as well as a close burst is a nice touch for gargantuan creatures and up – one of my first drafts for the Bakunawa had something similar. (Great minds think alike? :D) Mine was clunkier, though. It was a close burst that had, “Special: This power can be used wby the Bakunawa in place of a melee basic.” My main idea then was that it would be nice to have a gargantuan creature make OAs with close burst.
*Ongoing. 100. damage. Hell yeah. I love it if only because it’d be a blast to see the looks on my players’ faces when I say that. Too bad none of my groups are anywhere near facing a level 33 threat at this point. XD
*I agree with your initial reaction with stomp. It’s certainly the least unique of his abilities, as I think I’ve seen similar attacks from other creatures of size huge and up. Still, vanilla means that it’s easy to remember and use, so that’s still a plus.
*I like Wraith Armor a lot, in contrast, an I think the problem is mostly one of wording and timing. How about, “All conditions affecting Orcus end. In addition, he becomes insubstantial until the end of next turn, and anyone dealing damage (after factoring insubstantial) to Orcus with a melee attack during this time takes an equal amount of necrotic damage.” Since insubstantial will halve the damage anyway, I think it’s better to just get the insubstantial value as the amount damage “bounced” for simplicity.
*Final Word, like its predecessor Touch of Death, strikes me as an odd power in that there’s a chance that the miss attack deals more damage than the hit attack (ie, when the PC is already below bloodied). There’s also the weird instance regarding the shaman’s spirit companion, where a direct hit won’t kill it (because it has no hp), while a miss will (because it is destroyed when it takes damage above a certain treshold). But all in all, it’s just a personal complaint of mine with the 4E Orcus insta-kill.
*Both void damage and the fragile condition rock. Void reminds me of vile damage back in 3.x, while new conditions are always nice to have in the DM’s toolkit.
*I noticed that you used the moderate DC for the Arcana checks. I personally would have set it at hard, as the only characters who will attempt the check would be those who are trained anyway (in my experience).
*Finally, I disagree with the decision to use two monsters from E3, considering the fact that your Orcus is clearly distinct (and IMO vastly superior) to the one found in that supplement anyway. Make your own Orcus “summons!” Please? 😀
Anyway, that’s my feedback. Rest assured, if I do find the opportunity to unleash Orcus on a party of epic adventurers, I will use this version over either of WotC’s two attempts. But first, I have to buy that Orcus “bigature” for maximum effect. XD
beej!
March 9, 2011
PS. I think his hp’s a little too high for MM2 standards. Shouldn’t it be [(34*8)+35]*4=1228?
Upper_Krust
March 9, 2011
Howdy beej! 🙂
Thanks for the kind words. I think its okay for a first draft, but I am not totally happy with it for a number of reasons.
Re: Orcusword. My initial inspiration was the Beheading Blade power of the Essential’s Balor. I was trying to think of some way to really scare players without doing the whole decapitate thing. I may have got carried away with the Ongoing 100 (the near average crit damage); with hindsight ongoing 50 might be better.
Re: Stomp. I want to have him stomping, I just don’t think I have worded the power well at all.
Re: Wraith Armour. I agree its a bit confusing, I was planning on cutting this one up until the last minute. I think there is the seed of a good power in the idea somewhere. The reason why its a Move Action to begin with is that initially I wanted Orcus to move through a characters square and they’d get weakened or somesuch.
Re: Final Word. I sort of wanted to write that the attack kills you if it hits. But I wondered if that would confuse various epic powers that let you come back and so forth.
Re: Void Damage & Fragile. Void damage is basically just the same as permanent damage that I used in the Epic Bestiary. Of course I had to give a method of getting it back. As regards Fragile, glad you like it. I actually had (past tense) about ten new conditions and energy types for the original Vampire Bestiary. But ever since I moved the parameters of the book to cover Levels 1-15, about half of those won’t feature. Though there are still some new ones in there…I wonder if I have Warp damage for the Vampire Intelligence…?
Re: Skill Checks. Yes you are probably right. One of the idiosyncracies of Environmental Features like those in the article, are that I think the number of PCs should probably affect their design. But I probably should have said Standard Actions = Medium DCs, Minor Actions = Hard DCs.
Re: Summoned Monsters. It was purely for brevity (I have a Vampire book to finish remember 😉 ). That said, looking over Prince of Undeath. Those I choose were pretty much what I was looking for. Of course that part of the article won’t be much use for those without the adventure so I should probably suggest some alternatives.
Re: Hit Points. I used the Brute 10 as base, but kept to x4 overall. I am not sure I agree with the idea that all different roles should use x8 just because they are solo monsters. Plus 1500 was a nice round number to land on. I should probablt add that to the Solo Monster Design tips.
Dave
March 10, 2011
Hey UK:
General Thoughts:
Overall this is a vast improvement over the published versions of Orcus. This Demon Lord is a real threat to Epic Tier players. I imagine it would be an exciting battle that would tax a well organized party. He is more power and dynamic and just feels, well, bigger!
As I mentioned before, I also really appreciated the reasoning behind your power selection. This helped because I was not very familiar with some of the various incarnations of Orcus and some of your powers would have seemed out left to me otherwise.
The only real concern I have is with regard to the number of actions/turns Orcus can take. You have not given Orcus a way to perform actions outside its typical turn except immediate actions, which can only be used once per round. Minor actions allow Orcus to take more actions, but I feel it is more dynamic if solos are doing more outside the standard turn.
I would suggest an off initiative action (like the Monster Vault dragons) or possibly allow Orcus to use 2 immediate actions per round.
Anyway, great job and my more specific comments are below:
Level:
Given that your article on Demogorgon stated that demon princes should be level 32-36, I would put Orcus at lvl 35 (save lvl 36 for Demogorgon).
Hit Points:
I agree that solos should not all have the same number of hit points. I usually multiple [(lvl+1×8)+con]x5 for brutes and get a very similar result to what you got. However, I think using [(lvl+1×10)+con]x4 makes more sense. I think I will use that in the future. I also keep Brute solo defenses lower to compensate for the additional HP.
Resist:
I like resist all for Demon Lords and such, but I would probably also give him resist 50 necrotic
Speed:
8 seems low to me for a gargantuan biped. I would think 10 or 12 is more likely.
Traits:
I think you might want a trait or power that removes enemies resistance to necrotic damage. Anyone about to go up against Orcus will be up on necrotic damage resistance.
I might also add a trait that just explains that Orcus crits on 17-20 since it is in so many powers.
Standard Actions:
Attack bonus – if I give brute enough options to deal out consistant high brute level damage, I usually lower the to hit score a little.
Punch – no issues
Orcusword – I think this is to powerful as a basic At-Will. If it was a regular power with 50 ongoing it could be OK. Oops just realized the ongoing is only on a crit. It still think 100 is to high though. Also, what is the Orcusword? I’ve gone from 1e 1977 MM to 4e MM and I don’t know anything about this item.
Wand of Orcus – This one is a little funny IMHO. I don’t know that you need another damage type, that creates a lot of problems. You could use necrotic and just stat that the damage cannot be healed (since you did that anyway). I am not sure how I feel about it not being able to be healed. I can’t guess how that would work. I like it as a DM, but I am concerned that it would be incredible unbalanced in Orcus’ favor since he can use this attack every round. The wording of Miss (Secondary Attack) is a bit odd, but I think I know what you intend.
Wrath of Orcus – no issues
Final Word – the range is too long (compared to normal), but I can appreciate that. I have always felt 4E ranges were rather small.
Move Actions:
Stomp – is this actually a move action? I didn’t see anything about movement. Normally I would say, “Orcus can move up to half its speed, move through occupied squares and make the following attack against all enemies in squares through which he moves and all squares adjacent to the movement:” Or something similar (to be honest my wording is a little clunky, but I know it is a move).
Wraith Armour – Again is this really a move action? Normally I would say something like, “Orcus becomes insubstantial until the end of his next turn and can move up to his speed while insubstantial,” or something similar. Can Orcus attack normally while he is insubstantial? Also, this power doesn’t really feel like Orcus to me. I would prefer perhaps the opposite, he gains resist 50 to all damage and push enemies away as he moves or something similar.
Minor Actions:
Curse of Brittle Bones – Great Thor comic reference and great power. The fragile condition is nice. I might suggest that you make it, “until the end of Orcus’ next turn. This way you are sure to get a chance to crit the sucker the next round as well.
Pit of Despair – looks good to me. However, I am a little concerned that this Orcus is so powerful that adding more to the encounter woudl really tip thing in the Big O’s favor. That being said, it just makes sense. Demon Princes should be able to summon lesser demons. I too would fault on the said of makes sense vs. what works by the rules.
Resilient Bastard – nice condition end power; however, technically you can use a minor action if you are stunned, so you might need to reword this one to allow Orcus to shrug off a stun.
Triggered Actions:
Dark Prayer – looks pretty good and vicious to me, range might be a bit high. You are really inspiring me to get some attacks with more massive damage.
Howl of Anguish – looks pretty good but the range seems a bit high (do I sense a trend here).
Tail Spike – looks good
Wing Block – this looks fine, but it seems a bit unnecessary. I might drop it.
Dave
March 10, 2011
Oops! I meant to say:
“Resilient Bastard – nice condition end power; however, technically you cannot use a minor action if you are stunned, so you might need to reword this one to allow Orcus to shrug off a stun.”
Dave
March 10, 2011
P.S. I forgot to thank you for sharing this wonderful creation – thank you!
beej!
March 10, 2011
Hi again U_K!
Re: hit points, I suspected as much. On principle I agree with you on the hp, though in my experience a standardized base 8 solo brute is hard enough to take down (ie, there is already a noticeable grind). Still, with the increased lethality at bloodied, the players will be so busy staying alive that they won’t notice the grind. >=) On a related note, does that mean you’ll use base 6 for solo lurkers and artillery?
Re: Ongoing on crit, yeah, 50 does seem more balanced, though it doesn’t sound as fear-inducing as ongoing 100.
Re: Resistances, I did not notice the resistance all 20. This makes Orcus really meaty, especially when coupled with his high hp. I guess it’s a good tradeoff with the variable resistance though, which I always found a bit clunky. Though I agree with Dave on adding 50 necrotic. XD
Upper_Krust
March 10, 2011
Hi Dave, I’ll probably update Orcus here at the weekend when I have gone over all the feedback.
Re: Orcus’ # Turns. I don’t know. I mean he can can take 2 Standard Actions with Wrath of Orcus, plus 2 Minor (1 Move, 1 Minor) and a Triggered each round. So he’s averaging 5 attacks. I was thinking of the sword dancing when bloodied. I’ll mull over your suggestion though…actually reading below I agree he probably needs to have 2 immediate actions.
Re: Level. I’ll be keeping him at Level 33. Just because Demogorgon is the most powerful current Prince, doesn’t mean he’s the most powerful ever (probably Miska the Wolf-Spider).
Re: Speed. I initially had him at 12 (my default speed for Gargantuan) but then I looked at the Monster Manual and his speed is only 6. So clearly they expect him to be ponderous. But I like the idea of him moving a multiple of his space. I’ll probably change it back to 12 though – should have went with my first instincts.
Re: Resistances/Immunities. In my haste I actually forgot the line “Immune: disease, necrotic and poison.
Re: Attack Bonus. I was just going by the latest DMG errata. He’s +38 vs. AC and +36 vs. Defenses.
Re: Traits. I think I’ll delete Wraith Armour and add a Trait about the critical hits. I also remember planning an ability that lets Orcus remove necrotic resistance after 1 round and reverse it the next. Just got cut in the rush.
Re: The Orcusword. I think I’ll change the ongoing to 40 or 50, legally I think 40 is his figure for a standard hit, this being a crit only ongoing was why I upped it. There is very little information on the Orcusword, I think the first time I saw it, the blade was a +4 defender or something like that. Later books suggest its the sword Orcus possessed when he was still a Balor…and the Balor’s sword changes each edition.
Re: The Wand of Orcus. The wand is meant to be incredibly powerful. That said, I always recall that when using permanent damage back in 3E, I made the attacks about 50% as powerful. What I might do is keep the damage the same, make the normal hit necrotic and the crit permanent (but same damage rather than crit damage).
Re: Final Word. I was thinking for single target ranged attacks in the Immortal Tier: range 30 = standard action, range 50 = recharged standard, range 100 = encounter standard.
Re: Stomp. Yeah, not happy with this at all. Definately needs reworded.
Re: Wraith Armour. I may cut this power altogether, I was in two minds adding it.
Re: Curse of Brittle Bones. I’ll probably change this to last until the end of the encounter. 😉
Re: Pit of Despair. I sort of wanted his summoned demon-undead to be Level 29, not 30. I think summons should always be 4 levels lower (including that from the Wand).
Re: Resilient Bastard. Clearly it needs to be a Triggered Action…which again suggests he needs to be able to take two Immediate Actions per round.
Re: Dark Prayer. Its an encounter power, thats why I gave it the mega-area. Area 1-2-3 (Heroic); 2-3-5 (Paragon); 3-5-10 (Epic); 5-10-20 (Immortal)…okay, you are right, should have been Close Burst 20 not 50.
Re: Howl of Anguish. Again, as with Dark Prayer its basically an encounter power. But I see the mistake, should have been Close Burst 10 or 20.
Re: Wing Block. The initial idea was that this would have some synergy with the Death From Above power. So if he used Wing Block, he’d lose that other power. I sort of like it. Even if he blocks the PCs attack it means he’s been put on the defensive with that action.
Upper_Krust
March 10, 2011
Howdy beej,
Re: Hit Points. Yes I would use x6 for Solo Lurkers and Artillery.
Re: Orcusword. By default he should be using Ongoing 40. I made it Ongoing 100 because it was crit only. I may have a look at that. Initially I actually had the attack deal no damage except Ongoing 100. That may be too easy for PCs to nerf though.
Re: Resistances. As I mentioned in the above post I forgot the line “Immune disease, necrotic and poison.
Thanks for the feedback guys, much appreciated.
Dave
March 10, 2011
Hey UK,
Don’t let the fat goat take your whole weekend – even he is not that evil! Here are my thoughts on your responses.
Re: Orcus’ # Turns. – I think the number of attacks and damage is fine. My concern is the “feel” of the battle. As it is currently, only one of the attacks is taking place off turn. I just thought it my be a more dynamic encounter if Orcus was attacking at 3 different points in the round.
Re: Level. – I’m a little old school (and biased), Demogorgon and Orcus are always 1 & 2 (all time) in my book (If I was going by your Immortal Tier rules I would make them even higher actually and make Demogorgon a Demon Monarch). Of course, If I had my way Tiamat would be one of the most powerful gods. So it is probably mostly my own bias.
Re: Speed. – I think 12 sounds good to me.
Re: Resistances/Immunities. – I am not a big fan of immunities, but these seem reasonable.
Re: Attack Bonus. – I am still not sold on how brutes were handled in the errata. I still like the idea that brutes it harder, but less accurately.
Re: Traits. – I think limiting resistance will help and clarifying critical hits here just cleans things up.
Re: The Orcusword. – I think that will work. I still don’t know how I feel about Orcusword iteslf (the item, not your power), but I do like how you tied to Dark Prayer.
Re: The Wand of Orcus. – I think that is an interesting idea and probably more balanced.
Re: Final Word. That seems reasonable. I think the standard ranges are lacking anyway.
Re: Stomp. – I always have one or two powers that I have to go over a few times to get it correct.
Re: Wraith Armour. – That is fine, but I would recommend that you add another method to shrug off conditions, etc.
Re: Curse of Brittle Bones. – I don’t know if it is balanced or not, but I really like the idea it last the entire encounter. This should really motive the PCs one way or the other.
Re: Pit of Despair. – I don’t know how much that makes a difference, but I think you should keep it. Orcus should be able to summon and lesser undead/demons in may opinion.
Re: Resilient Bastard. – Yes, this probably works better as a trigger action.
Re: Dark Prayer. – Personally I don’t mind the large burst. This is Orcus after all! I just pointed it out because it seemed pretty far outside the norm. As I have mentioned before, I think the range/spread/distance of powers in 4E is a little short.
Re: Howl of Anguish. – same as above, I don’t mind it, just pointing it out.
Re: Wing Block. – keep it. I like how it changes the conditions of the encounter (Orcus can’t fly), it makes it seem more dynamic that way.
In fact, this might be something I add to future designs. I would probably make the solo slightly overpowered, but give it a power that weakens them or takes a power/action/or attack away. I could also have a built in weakness (if the solo is overpowered), that could be exploited with a skill challenge.
Perico
March 10, 2011
Hi, UK.
This is a great monster revision, and a much needed one. Here are my 2 cents:
– Aura of Death. It should work only on enemies, or at least on living creatures. Otherwise, it makes minion creation pointless.
– Crits: I see that the main attacks score a critical hit on a 17, but many others don’t. Perhaps it would be appropriate to add a Trait so that all attacks crit on a 17?
– Orcusword. I get what you are trying to do, but I am afraid it has weird interactions with the rules, as written. It is a basic close burst attack, which is unprecedented and doesn’t seem to mean anything in the game. If you want it to be used on opportunity attacks and charges, you probably should add a line like “You can use this power in place of a melee basic attack when making an opportunity attack. If you do, it targets all creatures in the burst”.
Also, much like Aura of Death, I wonder if it wouldn’t be better for it not to target allies. I get that a prince of undead shouldn’t care about those things, but this is a huge aura, making it quite difficult to use any creature other than the big bad.
– Wrath of Orcus. I would allow using Punch instead of Orcusword, since the sword gets shattered halfway through the encounter.
– Final Word. It would be cool for this to kill the target on a crit.
– Wraith Armor. As we are on it, you could clarify that the damage is calculated before factoring in Orcus’ resistance.
– Curse of Brittle Bones. The fragile condition should probably specify “all hits” instead of “all attacks”, to clarify that it doesn’t turn damaging misses into crits.
– Resilient Bastard. Wording is a bit confusing, as it implies that as a minor action you can spend a minor action to negate a condition. I’d rewrite it as ‘Effect: Choose an effect that a save can end or a negative condition. That effect no longer affects Orcus.’
– Dark Prayer. Again, the wording is a bit confusing, though intent is clear (I think!). As written, it damages all targets each time it hits, so that hitting two targets would render everybody unconscious, and hitting three would kill them. A better version could be ‘Hit: The target takes…’ and ‘Miss: The target takes…’.
– Howl of Anguish. There is no reason to specify it works 1/round, since it already requires an immediate action. I’d make it a free action 1/round.
Also, Orcus looks really vulnerable to stunning and domination right now, so I’d try to do something about it.
Upper_Krust
March 10, 2011
I have actually made some massive changes to Orcus this afternoon (Was meant to go to the gym, but the weather was horrible so I just decided to train in the house instead – which frees up about 2-3 hours). I may post it later tonight. Its really looking great now. 😉
The only things still to resolve are whether to remove Pit of Despair (making it an environmental feature) and make Tail Spike a minor action instead of a Triggered one.
I have also been thinking about the ‘arena’ itself. Maybe a 25×25 area, with 4 Pillars of Ruin (each 8 squares apart, 4 squares from the centre); with one Pit of Despair in each corner. I may change the effect of the Burning Bone Braziers to negate necrotic resistance (rather than just dealing damage).
Upper_Krust
March 10, 2011
Hey Perico,
Thanks for the feedback. I have made some massive changes, be sure to check back later.
Re: Aura. Agreed, great spot. I have also made it a donut aura called the Maelstrom of Swirling Souls. This aura is from 5-20 squares out. So anyone within 4 squares won’t be affected by it.
Re: Orcusword. I actually meant that to be Close Blast, not Close Burst (hence the icon). But I am just changing it to a Melee 4 attack.
Re: Wrath of Orcus. Noticed that myself about the Punch. I have also changed the two attacks so that they cannot target the same character…I went over the math and it just looked like utter death for anyone in melee with Orcus.
Re: Final Word. Great idea! 🙂
Re: Wraith Armour. Both this and Stomp are gone. replaced with Death From Above.
Re: Curse of Brittle Bones. Thanks again.
Re: Resilient Bastard. This is gone, replaced by an idea from Sly Flourish called Brutal Shake-Off. Totally fixes the whole Stun/Domination thing.
Re: Dark Prayer. Has been fixed…I think. Not sure where you get the damages targets multiple times from though? The damage is part lightning and part necrotic. It has a weapon signature because Orcus needs the Orcusword for the attack (this attack shatters it).
Re: Howl of Anguish. Also fixed and now an Encounter power that activates when Orcus is bloodied.
Dave
March 10, 2011
UK:
These all seem like good changes, I especially like the “Maelstrom of Swirling Souls.” I look foward to the redesign.
On a side note, you have forced/inspired me to revise my Demogorgon (which I made before the MM2 came out) with the tips and ideas contained in the last two articles. I hope to finish it this weekend.
Dave
March 10, 2011
RE: Dark Prayer – Perico is talking about the wording of the hit and miss entries. Since a burst could have multiple hits (up to one for each target in the burst) the fact that you put “Hit: All targets…” in the hit and miss entry implies that if target A is hit, target A, B, C, etc. take damage; and if target B is also hit, A, B,C, etc. take damage, and so on. Take out “All targets” and you should be fine.
Upper_Krust
March 11, 2011
Okay, I just updated him with the new stats and new material. Hope you enjoy! 🙂 Even though I toned him down a bit I still believe he may be too powerful. I’m actually considering removing bonus crit damage except for the weapon attacks. I think that may just about make him beatable…for a really heavily optimised 30th-level party…who get lucky.
Dave
March 11, 2011
UK:
Nice work on the update. This version is much more streamlined and I think the Death from Above power was a good add.
The opening attack of Orcus (in tactics) whould be simply devastating. Great stuff. I don’t see anything to tweak at the moment. But I will take another look in the morning.
Thank you again for sharing.
Simon Newman
March 12, 2011
Hi Krusty,
“I think that may just about make him beatable…for a really heavily optimised 30th-level party…who get lucky.”
Wouldn’t that be a Level 35 or 36 Solo? As I understand it, a typical, average, 5-PC level 30 group should have a 50% chance of winning against a Level 34 encounter, eg a level 34 Solo. So they should be able to beat a Level 33 Solo most of the time. If you’ve statted him such that he’s really at the absolute limit of possible beatability for a level 30 party then to stick to RAW you should really be rating him at least Level 35.
Dave
March 12, 2011
Simon,
The tough part with monster design (and especially solos) is that there is such a wide range of player and party optimization. I am pretty confident that when my PCs reach 30th lvl they will have 0% chance of beating this Orcus (they don’t care about optimization at all). However, if you got to the WotC Charater Opp boards I am pretty confident a highly optimized party would have 75%+ chance of defeating this Orcus. His defenses just aren’t high enough.
So I don’t think you can design to a generic 50% chance of success. A DM has to know his or her audience (most likely their PCs) and design for that. Given UK’s audience (Epic and Immortal Tier fans), I think this Orcus feels pretty good.
Personally when I design Gods, Demon Lords, Primordials and similar I don’t worry to much about following every detail of the monster design guidelines or wether or not the PCs can beat the things at lvl 30. To me, these beast are more about feel than strict adherence to rules and guidelines. If it feels right, then it is right. Besides, Epic level PCs “break” the rules, so why shouldn’t epic level monsters!
Dave
March 12, 2011
UK,
Inspired by out recent discussions and your Orcus, I have done a first pass at updating Demogorgon’s stat block (no lore or tactics yet). Now I just need to find a place to post it. I think I can post it over at DnD Forums or my rarely used blog (not updated since 2009!), but I have to remember how in both chases. Anyway, if I find a place to put it I will let you know.
I may have gone a little overboard with his powers, but when you have two heads, it is bound to happen. Still, 22 non-trait powers is a lot (though some are repeats of sorts), here is the breakdown:
General Powers:
Traits: Horrific Cacophony, Abyssal Fortune, Abyssal Might, Double Actions, Untamed Beast, Threatening Reach
Standard: Stomp, Tail Strike, Catastrophic Summons
Move: Rampage of the Demon Prince, Shifting Bite
Minor: Tentacle Slam, Grasping Tentacles, Insane Devotion, Throw
Trigger: Chomp, Hypnotic Gaze, Tail Lash
Aameul’s Head:
Standard: Bite, Beguiling Gaze, Dark Whispers
Minor: Renewed Rampage
Trigger: Untouchable
Hethradiah’s Head:
Standard: Bite, Telekinetic Crush, Gaze of Insanity
Minor: Full Charge
Trigger: Crushing Rebuke
Upper_Krust
March 13, 2011
Hey Simon,
Theoretically, a Level 34 solo monster should be a 50/50 chance of TPK for a Party of 5 Level 30 PCs.
However, I have read multiple reports of various Level 33, 34, 35 solo monsters getting creamed in about 2 rounds and being totally ineffectual against the PCs (and thats even after the DM nerfed Condition Locks and implemented MM3 damage values). These weren’t CharOp’ed PCs either, just experienced 4E gamers. Its clear that Epic Tier monsters need an additional leg up (even post-MM3).
Therefore I feel it is my responsibility to put the fear back in Epic PCs. Now that said, I am still fine tuning my version of Orcus. I have noticed a few mistakes even with the second draft (for instance my area effect damage is about 13% too high). I’m also wondering if bonus crit damage on every attack for solo’s is a step too far (though I’d keep it for weapon based attacks).
Basically I just want to stat him at the optimum potential of a Level 33 solo monster without breaking the rules. Orcus should be a deadly encounter, not a pushover.
PS. Dave, I’ll respond to your comments first thing in the morning mate. 😉
Dave
March 13, 2011
Hey UK,
I was able to post my Demogorgon over at the WotC DnD forums. You can check it out here if you are interested:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/27235085/Demogorgon_Updated?sdb=1&post_num=1#488997473
Simon Newman
March 13, 2011
Hi Krusty – I suggest you look at making or acquiring a group of level 30 PC stats, what you would regard as typical PCs, then ideally running your Orcus vs them in a playtest. You don’t necessarily have to spend 2 hours running a real battle, but just having the PC stats handy you can compare them to Orcus, run a couple rounds, and get a good idea what would happen for the rest of the battle by eyeballing it. If they’re dead in 2 rounds you can reckon that your Orcus is possibly overpowered. The PCs should be able to win around 2/3 of the time, or else your Orcus is not really level 33 and you should stat him at level 35+.
I recommend you do something like this – comparing to an actual level 30 PC group – for other BBEG Solos you make. Otherwise I think there’s a big risk of making monsters which are severely under- or over- levelled for actual play.
Upper_Krust
March 13, 2011
Hi Dave,
apologies for last night, needed to get a shower before bed and didn’t want to put the ‘puter back on after 1am.
Okay, I’m looking over your Demogorgon now, and the first thing that hits me is that 23 powers ~ (not counting 5 traits I didn’t add), is WAY too much. Thats a lot for a DM to remember (I still think my Orcus has 1-2 powers more than he should and he has 10 less than your Demogorgon) and whats liable to happen is that the DM will either ignore or forget a bunch of them. So the designer in me is screaming “Less is more! Less is more!”
The original Demogorgon had 8 powers (and 2 Traits), which I actually think is probably too few. Again I think 11-12 would be perfect. But looking over the MM2 stats WotC had most of the basics covered. The main features of Demogorgon are: 1) Tentacles with rotting, 2) Tail with energy drain, 3) Gaze from Aameul, 4) Gaze from Hethradiah, 5) Twin Gazes, 6) Double Actions, 7) Summon Demons. Beyond that, we are making stuff up. Although we haven’t mentioned Demogorgon’s Soul Object which is known as 8) Venomfountain – so thats a possibility. We could probably add a 9) stomp and a 10) telekinetic attack. WotC added a 11) teleportation attack (he teleports a target to him). If you wanted him as a leader then maybe a power that gives Demon allies a bonus attack or something like that.
One thing I noticed within your stat-blocks is you cover the same attacks multiple times.
– He has 4 different bite attacks, when 1 would do.
– He has 2 tail attacks, etc.
His Damage (at level 36) with a standard action should be 4d12+18 on a single target attack, 4d8+15 on an area attack.
His recharging area attacks should deal 4d10+20.
An encounter area attack would deal no more than 5d10+25
So. Stomp = 4d12+18, Tail Strike = 4d12+18, Catastrophic Summons = 4d10+20, Tentacle Slam = 4d8+15, Grasping Tentacles = 4d8+15, Insane Devotion = 4d10+20, Throw = 4d8+15, Chomp = 2d10+10, Telekinetic Crush = 6d10+30, Gaze of Insanity = 4d10+20, Crushing Rebuke = 2d10+10.
Going over some specific attacks:
Re: Horrific Cacophony. I think its difficult NOT to give solo’s an aura but for Demogorgon it does really take away from his Gaze attacks. So I wouldn’t give him an aura.
Re: Catastrophic Summons. Usually I would advocate the summons of 1 standard monster of 4 levels lower or an appropriate sized group of Minions (also of 4 levels lower). I do like that this power also deals damage.
Re: Critical Hits. As I noted in a previous post, I am wondering if bonus damage on critical hits on all attacks (especially non-weapon attacks) is a good idea. I think maybe its another area of complexity we could maybe ditch.
Re: Dual Actions. Demogorgon is very powerful, but I think you have to take the whole Dual Actions thing into account when you are determining his overall power.
Conclusion. Its an interesting first draft, but I’d definately trim about 8-10 of those powers.
Dave
March 13, 2011
UK.
Thank you for taking a look. Please remember, I am not looking to publish this information, it just needs to work for me. That being said, I know my PCs would have no chance against this guy, but that is the way I like it! Here was some of my reasoning:
# of Powers:
Demogorgon has 6 powers that are “duplicates” or recharges. This reduces the complexity for me and means I really only need to think about 17 or so powers (still a lot), I just need to remember that some get recharge or triggered as well. I don’t mind that both heads have the bite power, they should and it doesn’t add any complexity to me (just space).
In addition, I like my solos to have options and it is more important to me that they have what they need. I want them to feel correct. To me these are all things that Demogorgon should be able to do. If he didn’t have most of these powers in the stat block, I know I would be forced to make them up on the fly if I ran him. That is what I am trying to minimize. All the powers don’t need to be used, but they are there if you need them. That being said, I could probably eliminate at least 1 power from each head without too much concern.
Damage:
I was attempting to go for approximately 40-45 damage on at-wills and 60-65 on recharge powers, which I believe is about right for a level 36 controller and is about where your numbers landed as well. However, if I missed the mark I will change it.
I also tend to use higher amounts of +damage and less dice damage, so my max damage tends to be lower. I also tend to forget, or simple don’t, to make adjustments for single vs. multiple targets. If I think an attack should be more power, I make it so – regardless of single vs. multiple. I would probably change this if was to be published.
Critical hits:
I am not sure what you are saying here. This really the first time I have made a monster with specific critical hit bonuses to hit and damage. I like what you were doing, so I gave it a try. Are you suggesting that all attacks should crit on 17-20 or that fewer attacks should have extra crit damage?
Dual Actions: Not sure what you are saying, but I will note that he does not get any typical move actions. He has to use a standard action as a move action. So he doesn’t have 2 full turns worth of actions.
Thank you again for taking a look. I appreciate your help and comments. I need to review the damage and critical hits, but I think I will probably keep most of the powers that I have (I may trim 1 or 2), they work for me.
Upper_Krust
March 13, 2011
Hi Simon,
thanks for the advice, I’ll maybe try something like that if I can get the time. I still plan a few more tweaks before I’ll be happy with him. I’m leaning towards the idea that bonus damage to crits for non-weapon attacks may be overkill.
Eyeballing him, he does look too powerful. In his first round alone it looks like he’ll almost certainly kill 2 PCs. Of course at epic levels thats not the end of the world since epic PCs have a habit of immediately coming back from the dead at least once a day.
Dave
March 13, 2011
I have tried this a couple of times and I find that what I simulate, rarely equates to what will really happen. In 4e, tatics and group optimization play such a big part that I find it is hard to simulate this dynamic. You really need to find a group an play test it.
I tend to make my solos overpowered, I think, but even my unoptimized PCs have been defeating them with little trouble. Thus, I have started making my solos even thougher, like your Orcus and my updated Demogorgon.
Finally, at high Epic levels I think you need to drop a player a round to keep the fight interesting. They just keep poping back up.
Upper_Krust
March 13, 2011
Howdy Dave! 🙂
My guesstimation at the moment is that Paragon PCs are about 10% more powerful than their levels suggest, while epic PCs are 20% more powerful.
Thus Level 20 PCs are more like Level 22, whereas Level 30 PCs are more like Level 36…at least in terms of fighting monsters. Remember also that an encounter 4 levels higher than the PCs is supposed to be a 50/50 chance of a TPK.
So the question becomes do you amp monsters to compensate or simply use more powerful monsters? I think I would probably just fix monsters because otherwise you will end up with spiralling escalations of monsters.
Demogorgon
Re: #Powers. I don’t know how more powers will uncomplicate anything. More powers will only confuse people. While you say this is only for your personal use, any job worth doing is worth doing well.
Re: Damage. You shouldn’t be attempting anything. The damage rules in 4E are clearly outlined. WotC put the new damage tables in the DMG errata – I posted a link to it in the Solo Monster Design article. That table has 2 columns, single target and multi-target. You just look up the Level and modify as follows.
Triggered = 50%, Recharge = 75%, Encounter = 100%
Minor/Move = 75%, Recharge = 100%, Encounter = 125%
Standard = 100%, Recharge = 125%, Encounter = 150%
Brutes = +25%, Artillery = -25% (Melee)
After 30 I extrapolated the table to:
Level – One Target – Multi-target
31: 4d10+17, 3d10+13
32: 4d10+18, 3d10+14
33: 4d10+19, 3d10+14
34: 4d10+20, 3d10+15
35: 4d10+21, 3d10+16
36: 4d12+18, 4d8+15
37:4d12+19, 4d8+15
38: 4d12+20, 4d8+16
39: 4d12+21, 4d8+17
40: 4d12+20, 4d8+18
Re: Critical Hits. True I did advocate Bonus Crit Damage for solos. But I think that may now be a flawed decision.
I still say keep the Crit threat range (17-20 for solo monsters over Level 30), but ditch the bonus damage on all attacks. For attacks with a weapon keyword I might retain the damage (not sure yet) or I might add a secondary effect.
Re: Dual Actions. What I am saying is that you can’t just give him Dual Actions without thinking what that means to damage. If we build him to deal 100% damage that a solo monster of his level should do, THEN add in Dual Actions, we have a monster thats dealing 200% damage that a solo monster should do. So in my opinion, because of Dual Actions I think I would purposefully start Demogorgon at 75% damage rather than 100%. That way, he will end up dealing 150%. So all those damage figures I gave you in the previous post are 25% too high.
Dave
March 13, 2011
UK,
As always thank you for your time and help. I really appreciate you taking a look at my draft and all of your input. It is really good to discuss design concepts/philosphies and see how different people approach the same task differently. That said, here are my responses:
Re – # of powers:
I wasn’t trying to say that more powers don’t increase complexity, I am just saying some powers are not as complex as others, making the overall complexity a little less than if every power was 100% unique.
Also, as I mentioned, I routinely find that the solos that I have used “as is” simply do not have enough options in combat and I have to make up powers on the fly. This is fine, I have a spread sheet that has attacks, defenses, DCs, XP, damage, etc. on it (all the way to lvl 40). However, it slows things down and I am trying to avoid this.
I find if I design a monster that feels natural (to me) it is easier to run, regardless of how many powers. The greatest # of powers I have actually run in a game is 16 power adult dragon and I found it was easier to run than the 6-8 power solo from the MV adventure, because I didn’t have to make anything up. Evereything I needed was right there in front of me. Did I need all of the powers, no I didn’t. But I didn’t have to make anything up, so it went easier in the game.
Thus, it is unlikely I will ever under power (to few powers) my solos again. It just isn’t worth it for me. The time spent preparing for the adventure is well worth the ease of play for me. For me, it is not done well if Idon’t have all of the options that I need.
What is your experience with solos? Do you find that you have enough powers in game play? I haven’t really discussed this with anyone else,I just assumed everyone had the same problem (not enough powers) that I have had. But clearly Simon doesn’t have that problem, so I was just wondering what your experience is.
Damage:
I have all of the erata and I have applied it to my spreadsheet (that I mentioned before goes to lvl 40). But I didn’t have it broken down by trigger, minor/move, and standard, so I may add that – thank you.
Also, I used the word “attempting” because I hadn’t checked any of the damages against my spreadsheet yet. I was simply getting the feel for the powers.
That being said I don’t agree that you should follow a strict formula when designing monsters. I use the suggestions as guidelines, which they are (not rules), and as long as the average damage is close I find that it works.
After a quick review of the list you provided (thanks again), it seems my rough shot was pretty close to the mark. A few tweaks here and there and it should be just right. I think I got a little excited by the Orcus damage you had and I was forgetting that he is a Brute and Demogorgon a Controller.
Critical Hits:
OK. That makes more sense. I thought I only added extra damage on 2 or 3 powers (a small % of my total!), but maybe you were talking about Orcus.
I do think it makes more sense for a Brute to have extra crit damage though. The only one I really want for Demogorgon is Chomp, so I will probably remove it from the rest.
Dual Actions:
Obviously you have to consider the total potential damage. My first nod to this was to limit the # of actions per turn (which I mentioned). He only gets 2 per turn for a total of 4, which is only one more action than a standard monster and the same numbers as a MV dragon (not including trigger actions). I thought this would balance Demogorgon fairly well. However, I haven’t checked the math yet. This Demogorgon is a draft and, like Orcus, it will get revised.
Thank you again for all of your input. I think I might get Demogorgon spot on the 2nd time through and it normally takes 3-4 drafts before I get to a final. I wish I had time to get all of my solos reviewed!
I do, however, think you need to reconsider the # of powers though. I just don’t see how having more options hurts, as long as they are right at your finger tips and easy to find.
Simon Newman
March 13, 2011
“What is your experience with solos? Do you find that you have enough powers in game play? I haven’t really discussed this with anyone else,I just assumed everyone had the same problem (not enough powers) that I have had. But clearly Simon doesn’t have that problem, so I was just wondering what your experience is.”
As a GM I don’t think in terms of cinematics, which I’m guessing is where the need for more powers comes in. I found the dragon Solos I’ve run plenty complex enough. In general the MM solos are poorly designed, notably far too little damage, and in the black dragon’s case simply unplayable as written; but I never felt they were lacking in options.
Dave
March 14, 2011
“As a GM I don’t think in terms of cinematics, which I’m guessing is where the need for more powers comes in. I found the dragon Solos I’ve run plenty complex enough. In general the MM solos are poorly designed, notably far too little damage, and in the black dragon’s case simply unplayable as written; but I never felt they were lacking in options.”
Simon:
I guess we just run our monsters differently and/or have different DMing styles and/or have different monster needs. I don’t think I am very cinematic (I’m not even sure what you mean actually), but I definitely feel like I have to add stuff to make dragons playable.
I realize that the MM1 dragons (and MM1 solos in general) are poorly designed. But I find it odd that a dragon can’t use its tail or wings in combat (and a blue dragon can’t bite), or only on a trigger option. Or that they have few to no options for flying combat.
I’m ok with the switch from spells to elemental mastery, but having one additional elemental power (other than the breathweapon) is not mastery in my book. I just feel that they need more.
This can all be handle on fly, which is what I have done. But I would much rather have it in front of me. I just don’t see the problem with having extra options. You don’t have to use them, but it is nice to have them if you need them. I always feel a little cheap and dirty when I make up a power in the middle of a battle. I rather have more time to think about it. But maybe it is just me.
Simon Newman
March 14, 2011
“But I find it odd that a dragon can’t use its tail or wings in combat (and a blue dragon can’t bite), or only on a trigger option”
When I think Dragon I think 1e AD&D MM1 dragon; they had claw/claw/bite; no wing slaps or tail lashes, with the breath as a huge-damage alternative. Simple to run and went down fast, but could do tons of damage. Often high level PCs would fight groups of dragons at once, and/or dragon-riding evil knights. The evil dragons very rarely had spells.
So for me the problem with 4e D&D MM1 dragons was their pathetic damage output combined with extreme durability, the opposite of the 1e dragon.
I was talking with fellow gamers in the pub last night about how long a fight ‘should’ last; we’d just been playing 1e AD&D and the consensus was that 1e fights with weapon specialisation in use went by too fast, maybe a minute or two of real time, often less than 1 combat round in-game. Conversely 4e fights often felt too long, at 60 minutes+, and Solo fights usually much longer than 5-standard-monster . Most people felt that around 30 minutes would be the sweet spot, about half the 4e default.
Dave
March 14, 2011
Simon,
I remember those 1e days well. I had to flesh out my dragons then as well. I remeber some great Dragon articles about costumizing dragons that helped a lot (rember something about a vorpal bite). That being said, I agree that my biggest problem with 4e dragons is their lack of damage and general solo problems.
I don’t remember any 1e fights being that fast, but we hardly played RAW. In 4e we have some fights that last 15 minutes and some that last 1hr+, but most of them are about 30 minutes. Personally, our solo fights are short and our multiple target fights are longer. This is not always the case, but more often than not it is. I agree that the 30 minute fight is about ideal. If all goes well that is about 8-10 rounds for us.
Our last adventure actually ended with a dragon chasing the party (they had already used almost all of their surges and dailys so they chose to flee) that lasted about 20 rounds, but I kept it fast paced and that probably took less than 30 minutes. The dragon dropped 3 players during the fight/flight, but everyone eventually escaped.
Simon Newman
March 14, 2011
“about 20 rounds, but I kept it fast paced and that probably took less than 30 minutes”
That’s an awful lot faster pace than any 4e fight I’ve ever seen!
The 1e 1-2 minute fights lasted less than 1 combat round, thanks to weapon specialisation all the monsters would be dead after 2 PCs’ actions!
Dave
March 14, 2011
After the first few rounds it was just the PCs and the white dragon. Since all of the dragon’s actions were after the PCs I had all the PCs do there actions at once. It really sped things up.
I often have my PCs go in pairs if no monster acts between there actions. I also remind them to have their actions ready every so often, and I skip a PC if they are not ready. I think these help to speed things up a lot.
Hmm. I don’t remember weapon specialization at all. We probably didn’t use it. I should also explain that back then we had both AD&D and D&D stuff and didn’t realize there was a difference. We just grabbed whatever we wanted and ran with it. Rules we not a big concern for us back then for us and clearly we were not paying a lot of attention!
Dave
March 14, 2011
I forgot to mention that it was one the most talked about encounters. They really liked it.
Upper_Krust
March 14, 2011
Hey Dave,
Re: # of Powers. Occam’s razor says that the simplest of two mechanisms that accomplish the same thing is superior and that the other is redundant. I could make a version of Demogorgon that does everything your version accomplishes…in about 12 Powers. The two reasons being that firstly, you are continually retreading the same powers. Secondly that you are adding complexity of parts to a system that was designed to be as streamlined as possible. May as well go back to 3rd Edition where monsters like Orcus and Demogorgon had about 20 feats and 20 spell-like abilities – most of which were redundant.
Plus, what you are doing by adding more and more powers is taking away the spotlight from the SIGNATURE powers of a particular monster – which is the complete opposite of why I love 4th Edition (because it boils monsters down to their signature powers). When a monster can do twenty different things, then it loses much of its identity.
Now the flipside is the 1E approach Simon mentioned where the likes of a Dragon had claw/claw/bite and a breath weapon attack. It was a minimalist approach, but back then Dragons probably weren’t designed to be solo monsters (even though I am sure they often figured in that role). Plus they really went down like bowling pins in 1st Edition. My memory is a little foggy, but I seem to recall back in 1E we killed the most powerful Dragon in the universe, Primordius (800 hp), in what was basically a one round fight…or at worst didn’t get to the end of the second round.
Re: Monster Damage. As regards monsters damage designed by formula, remember that the math in D&D is ‘behind the curtain’, knowledge of the math is metagaming. Therefore don’t worry about all Level 33 Brutes dealing the same damage, because its not the math that seperates them, but their individual powers and abilities. Can you break the formula, on occasion (for instance Orcus’ Last Word power), but do so very sparingly.
So while everyone is free to design these monsters the way they want, understand that monsters are designed a certain way for good reason. 😉
Dave
March 15, 2011
UK:
Thank you again for the thoughtful response, and once again here are my thoughts.
RE – # of Powers:
Well I am pretty sure that is not exactly what Occam’s razor says. What it says is that the simplest solution (all things being equal) “tends” to be the better solution. It is a shift in an argument, not the end to an argument as you construe it.
12 powers, I don’t know about that. I can get it down to 17 powers I think (and I probably will) without losing functionality, but less than that I would have to start making stuff up on the fly I think. I think your first Orcus had 18, so I don’t think 17 would be too far off the mark for a controller like Demogorgon. I could eliminate the Catastrophic summons and Insane Devotion powers (they were late adds) , but I think they add to the controller feel of the big D.
Furthermore, some of these are partially redundant (as you said), so they add little to complexity, but increase the functionality IMHO. Clearly you do not like the fact that some trigger or minor actions reference other powers and are thus redundant in a sense (I assume you’re not talking about both heads having a bite power – that was just common sense and it will be moved to the general powers for simplicity). However, this is one of my favorite features. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one.
However, I do think you are correct that adding more powers can remove from the signature powers. That is why I will probably remove Dark Whispers and Telekinetic Crush. The remaining powers have a lot of built in redundancy, which I like, that helps to prevent the power build up from distracting from the players experience of the signature powers. To the PCs a Tentacle Slam as a minor & trigger feels the same and doesn’t distract from the signature gaze powers. If I made that trigger power unique it probably would start to distract as you suggest.
Re – Damage:
That is a good point about the math being behind the curtain. I can get too caught up in how my monsters look on paper sometimes. It bothers me when all the damage dice are same; however, the PCs simply are not experiencing it that way. I just need to let go of that and stick to my spreadsheet. It would make my life easier and it is safer.
However, I also understand that designs can be flawed (I’m an architect – so I really know what I am talking about here!), just like the first set of solo designs were flawed. Clearly you feel they are still flawed as well or you wouldn’t have 12 tips for designing solos! You seem to assume the new damage tables are correct. I am not ready to make that assumption yet. My current PCs are only in Heroic, and I don’t think I will have any evidence until we get to high Paragon or Epic, but I have heard many stories of people using double the original damage to good effect, and I believe that is higher than the errata. Nonetheless, I will probably stick to the errata damage until personal evidence suggest otherwise.
Actually, didn’t you recommend that ongoing damage shouldn’t require a reduction in the dice and static damage (as the official examples seem to suggest). Thus, in some way, you believe (or believed) that the current damage figures are incorrect.
Simon Newman
March 14, 2011
Poor old Primordius the World Ravager, he was too young to die! 🙂 Thrin had a lot more trouble with Russian mercenary Oleg Gadinsky than he did with the ‘ultimate dragon’.
Upper_Krust
March 15, 2011
I’ve been wracking my brains trying to think of a single enemy in 1st Edition that lasted longer than two rounds once we got past about 10th-level.
As regards Oleg, that fluke with the grenade meant it was squeaky bum time. That was just a ridiculous ambush though. If anyone has seen the movie “The Rock” with Nicholas Cage, think about the bath-house scene. This is what happened to my 117th-level Lesser God character Thrin and a bunch of SAS allies who teleport into an ambush by russian cyborg mercs.
The powered-armour Arasaka Troops were really tough though. Automatic-grenade launchers are not to be trifled with…even if you are a god.
Dave
March 15, 2011
UK:
I just updated Demogorgon to draft #2 with 17 powers and revised damage. I could possibly get to 16 powers by deleting the Catastrophic Summons and Insane Devoition powers, but I feel I would need to add something back.
This is probably good for now until my PCs get closer to high Epic/ Immortal and I can more accurately access the design concepts (I am a little concerned about the damage being low).
Thank you again for the suggestions and comments. If you want to take a look at the update it is here:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/27235085/Demogorgon_Updated&post_num=1&msg=The%20post%20has%20been%20deleted.&sdb=1
Upper_Krust
March 15, 2011
Hi Dave,
Okay its far, far better designed and just about on the fringe of what I’d consider an acceptably sized stat-block. That doesn’t say it could be improved though. Personally I would…
Remove: Horrific Cacophony, Full Charge and Insane Devotion.
Bring Back: Telekinetic Crush (I liked that one)
Move: Stomp becomes a Minor Action, Tentacle becomes a Standard Action.
Merge: Tentacle Slam and Grasping Tentacles.
That would take you down to 14 (your stat-block has 18 at the moment since Aura’s would count towards the total because they are an attack).
Dave
March 15, 2011
UK
Thank you for looking at it again. I think your suggestions seem reasonable. I don’t know that I will make all those changes, but they merit strong consideration.
I will probably get rid of insane devotion and modify the Summons to be level 30+/- minions.
I need to think about Horrific Cacophony, I still like some type of Aura. I did simplify it quite a bit, so I don’t know that I will eliminate it.
I have been thinking about merging tentacle slam and grasping tentacles, but I am not sure how to do it yet. Perhaps one just replaces a trigger power or something.
I am not sure about switching tentacle slam and stomp, I will think about it.
I like the full charge power, but perhaps it is overkill. I will think about removing it.
Do you think telekinetic crush should be a general standard power or tied to one of the heads?
Thank you again for the comments. I don’t expect to update Demogorgon again anytime soon, but you never know when the design bug will strike!
Simon Newman
March 16, 2011
Hi Krusty – I just used your “The Rock” clip (was that Michael Biehn dying again?) here:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/302985-orc-archer-overpowered.html
Upper_Krust
April 4, 2011
As regards the idea of double actions for solo monsters here are the changes I would make to Orcus above.
– Wrath of Orcus = deleted
– Dark Prayer = Standard Action (Encounter, usable anytime after he is bloodied)
– Tail Spike = Minor Action
– Curse of Brittle Bones = recharge 6
– Brutal Shake-Off = replaced with Boss Resilience: Loses 1 Standard Action when stunned, loses 1 Minor Action when Dazed, loses 1 Move Action when Immobilized (see Boss Monster).
New Trait
Boss Monster: Orcus can take two turns worth of actions each round (standard, move, minor). He does not need to roll Initiative, each turn acts on set Initiative Counts of 35 and 25. Orcus can also use two immediate actions during a round. Orcus makes saving throws against negative effects affecting him at the end of each of his turns. Orcus can still only use one Action Point per round.
I’m also planning to remove the bonus critical damage.
Dave
April 6, 2011
UK:
If you give Orcus two move actions will you shorten the move speed? I usually only allow one move action, but it would make a lot of sense (and make it more dynamic) with two move actions at half the distance.
Upper_Krust
April 6, 2011
Hi Dave,
Yes thats exactly what I was thinking. I might give him a movement of 8, because I prefer monsters to move in multiples of their own space, which in this case is 4×4 squares.
I’ll probably update him for the final time this weekend. Building up a half a dozen new updates (various previews, articles, reviews and new monsters) for this website so that I can have them coming thick and fast in and around the time of the Vampire Bestiary launch. That will include my super-solo rules (with examples) and other monsters.
Dave
April 7, 2011
OK:
I think that is a good idea and 8 per move would really allow him to move arond the battle field.
Super-solo, did you say super-solo? Now that sounds interesting.
Upper_Krust
April 7, 2011
The Super-solo rules are specifically for monsters larger than Gargantuan:
Mega-sized (x10): about as big as a castle
Giga-sized (x1000): about as big as a mountain
Tera-sized (x1,000,000): about as big as a planet
Peta-sized (x10E10): about as big as a star
Exa-sized (x10E15): about as big as a solar system
Zetta-sized (x10E21): about as big as a galaxy
Yotta-sized (x10E28): about as big as a universe
The rules themselves are incredibly simple. But they’ll make more sense once people read the Vampire Bestiary’s ‘Boss Rules’.
Dave
April 8, 2011
UK:
That is great news, I tired something like this for 4e after I picked up your Immortal Handbook a year or two ago. I seem to remember our universe being larger than Yotta size, but it has been a long time sense I looked at my notes.
I remember I came up with a neat little mechanic that made the stats relative to divine rank. So that for every 4 or 5 difference in DR (I can’t remember off the top of my head) the stats effectively doubled. So if the PCs were fighting a monster that had DR 6 higher than theirs it would effectively have 2x the range, speed, damage, etc. list on its stat block. This was an attempt to prevernt stat bloat, but I never quite worked it out completely before I lost interest.
As I recall, I had to go to rank 500 to get bigger than the largest known glaxay. So I am guessing your rules are a lot simpler (and probably more playable) than mine!
I am also interested in introducing a mountain sized monster in my current campaign so I will be interested to see how you approach massive sizes. I look forward to it.
Upper_Krust
April 9, 2011
Well the really big size rules were unplayable in 3E, I mean they made sense mathmatically, but theres not much point when you see stats for things like Atuin the Star Turtle and it has SO many digits that its simply unplayable.
With 4E I took that onboard and MASSIVELY simplified everything. So instead of a hundred different sizes there are 7 or 8 possible sizes each of which is an order of magnitude bigger than the previous order of magnitude.
Instead of worrying about the specific details, its far more of a general, workable approach.
The most recent build of the Super-solo rules kicks off at about Level 26. So thats basically the minimum for something thats Mega-sized…or ‘as big as a castle’. A descriptor itself non-specific in size because not all castles are the same size, not all mountains are the same size, not all planets are the same size, etc. So exact specifics are irrelevant.
I’m planning two examples. One will be Mega-sized and another (a bit later) will be Giga-sized. I will have other even bigger examples but they’ll be saved for products down the line. These rules will be in an article on this website sometime shortly after the release of the Vampire Bestiary.
Dave
April 9, 2011
Sounds great, I look forward to it.
beej
April 13, 2011
Did I get that right? You’re releasing super-solo and bigger-than gargantuan rules here on the website? That’ll be awesome!
Speaking of which, I may begin work on some epic material for Nosfecatu Publishing as well. I’ve mentioned Bakunawa before, and if it’s okay with you, I’m planning on using your size rules for it (I mean, the dragon swallows MOONS whole. I just don’t think gargantuan cuts it.) I will of course credit you if I do end up using your rules. 🙂
Upper_Krust
April 13, 2011
Howdy beej mate! 🙂
Best of luck with your epic material amigo.
I will indeed be releasing the super-solo rules here on this website (shortly after the Vampire Bestiary is released). Thinking about it, I just wanted to ge them out there and it may have been a year (or more, knowing me) before they showed up in a relevant product of mine. The main problem is not the rules (which are very simple) but rather the examples I think such an article will need. I may start with one example and then add another the week after.
As regards the Vampire Bestiary, Peter Szmer has another 6 fantastic illustrations completed and 2 more in stages of completion that should hopefully be done by the weekend (thats 25 completed illustrations!). I think that would leave 11 illustrations to be completed (there is a lot of art in this book and its all amazing trust me). Thinking about it, I may have earlier overestimated how fast we were working. My guess is the remaining 11 illustrations will probably take at least 4-5 weeks from this weekend. I should point out I don’t have all the text completed yet, but very nearly all and I am off work for almost 4 weeks from next Tuesday. So I’ll have plenty of time to wrap things up.
I should also mention I hope to post a new web article here called the Ten Commandments of Epic sometime over the next 24-36 hours. Been meaning to post it last weekend and just haven’t got the chance to finish it. Should get it done soon though.
Upper_Krust
April 15, 2011
For those wondering where that new article is, the good news is that its about 60 minutes from completion. The bad news is that I need to go to work in 30 minutes. Meaning I won’t have it ready until Saturday evening (UK time).
Virgie
January 10, 2013
Thank you for the auspicious writeup. It in fact was a amusement account it.
Look advanced to far added agreeable from you!
However, how could we communicate?
price of silver
June 6, 2013
This paragraph provides clear idea designed for the new users
of blogging, that genuinely how to do blogging.